# Lance Armstrong giving up the fight vs. USADA, may be stripped of his titles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 24, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447 "2012-08-24T02:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DarkFire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@DarkFire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkFire)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/261 "2012-10-18T09:20:39Z")
The sad thing is that he has done lots of good work with all the attention LiveStrong has gotten over the years. But it feels wrong to credit him for that now. I always said that I hoped the dope accussations were false because it would suck for the message he always stood for (“You too can survive cancer and live a great life”) and now… Well… “You too can survive cancer and then cheat and bully people around” is not as much of a good message. It’s good he’s stepping away from the organisation, as they do good work, but I feel he can no longer serve any role for them. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/262 "2012-10-18T09:25:43Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > They say the three stages of grief are denial, anger and acceptance. You seem to be on the first stage, still. Funny and oh so true. Actually the stages according to Kübler-Ross are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance but they occur in no particular order. I have often noticed though that, as you point out, any change to your world view can make you go through the stages. You see mini grieving all the time when you look for it. It seems really common at work when someone commits a major fuckup. It’s not really wrong. It’s someone else’s fault. Maybe we can just not mention it and fix it up. Oh no I’m such an idiot - I’ll never live it down. Oh it’s all forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/263 "2012-10-18T09:37:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The problem with that is that he didn’t break the rules. As I stated above, if they provide a test, and he passed that test, and he did not do anything to manipulate that test, then, by any reasonable measure, he did not cheat. You can’t have a rule saying someone can’t do something if you have no way of checking to see if they’ve done it. That’s how rules work. You know, you can state “that’s how rules work” as often as you like, but it doesn’t make it fact. In sport, you’ve got rules. That’s pretty much as detailed as you can get for all sports, because the details for everything else varies. What the rules say, who enforces them,right of appeal, and indeed the time they apply for varies not just from sport to sport, but even according to the level you compete at. Who determines “how rules work” for a particular sport determines on just who’s playing and at what level. If you want to compete in a particular contest, then you follow the rules of the organising body for that event. It’s your choice. No-one is making you turn up or compete. You want to play their game, it’s their rules. There is precisely zero room for argument on this point. Now cycling is a sport that knows all there is to know about the issues that PED use can lead to, with obvious examples like Rivière, Jensen, Tom Simpson, Bernard Thévenet and many others. The organising bodies know that there’s no way to catch new drugs with existing tests. So they make a simple rule. They say that new tests can and will be applied to old samples. They do this because it is the only possible way to deal with the problem other than say “take whatever you like”. Armstrong knew this, and he competed, and now he’s ruined. This is a wonderful thing, and cause for much celebration for people who like cycling as a sport. His public example will hopefully make people think twice about cheating, on the grounds that whatever undetectable wonder drug appears on the scene today will most likely be detectable down the line. But no, you can’t complain that this is not fair because it’s not how rules work. He knew what the rules stated. He chose to compete. He chose to cheat. He’s ruined. That’s how rules should work. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/264 "2012-10-18T09:41:36Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Yes, it’s a sport. It has rules, but is still **just** a sport, a game eg. not important. And you’re entitled to award it exactly as much importance as you care to in your life. So, if it’s not important to you, why do you keep telling people who it is important to why the rules for their sport are wrong? Shouldn’t you be out doing something that you care about? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/265 "2012-10-18T09:49:38Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Yes, it’s a sport. It has rules, but is still **just** a sport, a game eg. not important. > People take this stuff way to seriously. You want rules in place, then make sure they are enforceable when the sport actually occurs. Otherwise, fix what problems you can and get on with it. Stop clogging up the airwaves with drama over the unimportant. Presumably you think your views aren’t merely clogging up the airwaves. Presumably you take sport seriously enough to keep participating in this thread and putting forward your views as to what the rules should be. Seems to me you just think it’s _airwave clogging_, and _taking things too seriously_, when people besides yourself express views. You just want to shut down the debate when other people are talking. Probably because when it comes to actual rational debate, you ain’t got shit. What is going on here at the moment is - while eminently predictable - just sad. I have until now somewhat restrained myself but let’s be frank: there are many many people on these boards who I (and others) could hand a great big dish of cold, sour “_ **I fuckin’ told you so** _.” I first started arguing that LA was doped to the eyeballs on these boards in 2004. Eight years ago. I’ve heard it all. The only thing that has changed is the increasing lameness of the positions of those I’m debating. And that lameness has, since a week or two sunk to whole new levels of pathetic. It always used to be denial that LA had doped. The constant theme over the years was that lack of official positive tests showed that LA was a True Shining Hero, who was clean and not someone who was doing anything wrong. All his detractors, so it was said, were just jealous of his success, which was - we learned - due to his hard training and determination. And now finally we reach the point where almost nobody with two brain cells to rub together can actually argue with a straight face that LA was riding clean. So now LA’s only remaining apologists can’t continue their worship by denying that LA was doped, so we have sunk to the level where we learn that what LA did was alright because _doping is actually OK anyway_. Yanno, I don’t remember hearing that argument before. As I recall, the argument was that LA didn’t dope. But now that we agree that he did, suddenly we learn it doesn’t matter, because doping was OK. It wasn’t even against the rules. LA “didn’t break the rules”, because the rules of cycling were apparently what BigT\* thinks they should have been (and no doubt what LA wishes had been). It’s pitiful. Being completely and utterly wrong, and taken for a ride by a lying cheating scumbag isn’t fun. I understand that. No one likes to be taken for a fool. It’s humiliating. Just finish off your great big bowl of humiliation, swallow it down and walk away. Or provide me with more to laugh at. Take your pick. \*A guy who so far as I know doesn’t even seriously follow the sport, let alone participate in it, let alone govern it ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/266 "2012-10-18T09:58:46Z")
Well said **Princhester**. When considering a case like Armstrong’s, the process should be evidence -\> conclusion, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/267 "2012-10-18T10:09:27Z")
Why doesn’t this board have a like button? Princhester, that is a great post. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/268 "2012-10-18T10:09:39Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I first started arguing that LA was doped to the eyeballs on these boards in 2004. Eight years ago. I’ve heard it all. The only thing that has changed is the increasing lameness of the positions of those I’m debating. And that lameness has, since a week or two sunk to whole new levels of pathetic. You must be the life of the party then that something so unimportant takes up so much of your time. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/269 "2012-10-18T10:13:27Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You must be the life of the party then that something so unimportant takes up so much of your time. You are the one saying it is unimportant, yet here you are. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/270 "2012-10-18T10:13:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > When companies are paying you millions of dollars to win an event, it is no longer “not important”, we’re not talking about a kids soccer match here. We are talking about a man who defrauded his sponsors to the tune of many millions of dollars. There was an individual sponsor (can’t remember who) that paid five million dollars for one of his Tour deFrance wins. And I’m sure that the sponsors can prove damages for how much they have lost in giving him that money to represent them. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/271 "2012-10-18T10:19:27Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You must be the life of the party then that something so unimportant takes up so much of your time. 20 posts to this unimportant thread makes you equal second highest poster. Suppose it will be 21 in a moment. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/272 "2012-10-18T10:20:39Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You must be the life of the party then that something so unimportant takes up so much of your time. I suggest you look up the ad hominem fallacy sometime. **Princhester** ’s posts have been informed and interesting to read, as have those of several other contributors to this thread. I for one appreciate them taking the time to explain what has been going on in some detail. Sadly, some other posters have turned up armed with nothing more than a bunch of _reckon_. That’s not so bad in itself, ignorance is the default position for all of us, but they show no inclination to listen to others and think about the arguments being presented. Many of us can tell the difference between group A and group B. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/273 "2012-10-18T10:21:16Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And I’m sure that the sponsors can prove damages for how much they have lost in giving him that money to represent them. That is not the point. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/274 "2012-10-18T10:57:57Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You must be the life of the party then that something so unimportant takes up so much of your time. You’re the one saying its unimportant to you. Of course you’re well within rights to have no interest in the sport, just as others are entitled to enjoy it. Quite why you feel you can insult him for being interested in the sport is beyond me though. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/275 "2012-10-18T10:58:16Z")
May I once again bring everyone’s attention to my post at the top of this page. It’s a religious arguement now. The TRUE BELIEVERS will never be swayed from their faith. Belief gives them their faith. It’s that simple. There’s no rationality in it. Bottom line? It doesn’t matter how much forum noise we make, Armstrong’s going to jail if he ever confesses. His testimony under oath during the SCA litigation will see to that. Cheating at the TdF was one thing. Lying under oath to fraudulently obtain 5 million bucks during 2005 is another. He’s toast if he ever confesses. He brought the litigation against SCA. He testified under oath to get his hands on that money. Marion Jones? Please show Lance where you spent 6 months in 2007. The people who keep defending him are irrelevant. One other thing… under the Olympic World Anti Doping Association charter? Anyone found to have obtained and/or disseminated illegal drugs in the pursuit of systematic cheating is automatically exempt from the 8 year statute of limitations. That’s why USADA had carte blanche to go as far back as they wanted. Whine all you want you Lance supporters. If you’re American and you wanna stay in the Olympics? You gotta suck on that one, big time. He’s toast. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/276 "2012-10-18T11:26:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, again, my point is that a rule that cannot be enforced is not a rule. And that it’s ridiculous to punish someone after the fact, unless your tests screwed up. It’s like an _ex post facto_ law. Please refer to the WADA code relating to dissemination of illegal substances. Once you’re found guilty of that, it’s all bets are off - no more statute of limitations. So soak up what I’m about to say loud and clear. This thing you’re doing? Speaking through your arse, time after time after time, making out you’re an authority when it’s clear you don’t know jack? It ain’t cutting it. You’re defending one of the most morally bankrupt global public figures of the past 20 years. Ignorance, like I wrote 2 pages ago, is not an excuse here. But you keep clutching at it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/277 "2012-10-18T11:37:56Z")
> [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](#): > > May I once again bring everyone’s attention to my post at the top of this page. > > It’s a religious argument now. Heh, I participate in those too and have no less fun! ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/278 "2012-10-18T12:07:16Z")
I was one of the defenders of LA, back when accusations first surfaced, because there was no proof, just rumors. Without proof, I felt that he deserved the benefit of the doubt. Now that there’s conclusive proof to the contrary, I will concede that I was wrong. That doesn’t mean that I feel it is justified to want me to eat a heaping dish of cold, sour “I told you so.” There is nothing remotely shameful about wanting more than some random poster’s assertions, no matter how passionately delivered, before damning someone. I needed more than that; I got it. Now I agree that LA is a big, fat liar, liar pants-on-fire cheater. And people who cling to his innocence need to take off their rose-colored glasses. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/279 "2012-10-18T12:52:29Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > There is nothing remotely shameful about wanting more than some random poster’s assertions, no matter how passionately delivered, before damning someone. Actually, in 2005 in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6515502) you were given specific references to reputable sources indicating that LA’s samples had tested positive for EPO. You refused to listen. I guess it helps you to remember this as “random poster’s assertions” but the funny thing about message boards is that they have a longer and more accurate memory than you. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/280 "2012-10-18T16:19:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Do please enlighten me on how this is going to work in practice, I think your attempt at an explanation should be most [del]amusing[/del] interesting. > > Or are you just desperately trying to find some way to justify the behaviour of a lying, cheating scumbag, any way you can, because you just can’t let go of the notion he was some sort of hero? > > They say the three stages of grief are denial, anger and acceptance. You seem to be on the first stage, still. Not a hero of mine. I don’t own any of his merchandise, and I didn’t watch the Tour when he was riding. I honestly just don’t give a damn anymore. It’s also a little disconcerting to think that there is, essentially, no statute of limitations on all of this, and it’s a little remarkable to believe that a guy who was a lot closer to death than I’d like to contemplate could dominate the sport through doping. I honestly don’t have a dog in the fight, as it appears you do. Still trying to figure out the mafia don thing, hyperbole be damned. Is he under indictment for racketeering or something now? Go ahead and kick me on the way out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=15)