# Lance Armstrong giving up the fight vs. USADA, may be stripped of his titles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 24, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447 "2012-08-24T02:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/41 "2012-08-24T18:10:59Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I’m not sure Armstrong thought (as many still don’t) that the USADA could strip him of his Tour de France titles. I don’t see how they can. The last headline I read about this said: “anti-doping group strips Armstrong of titles.” I’m also interested in how “a group” has the authority to strip titles. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/42 "2012-08-24T18:11:32Z")
What is the source of the USADA’s authority? The US part of their title makes me question if they have authority over events held outside the US. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/43 "2012-08-24T18:14:01Z")
> [@](#): > > And, if it’s as everyone says, and everyone is doping, doesn’t that mean that Armstrong would have still won if no one was doping? It means nobody will ever know, which is the sad thing and also the entire point. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/44 "2012-08-24T18:15:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is there a cycling equivalent to “I’m gonna take my ball and go home?” Because that’s what this is. Great fundraiser that he has been for cancer causes and great symbol and everything else, it was obvious long ago that he was doping like crazy and it’s just as obvious that the testing was laughably bad. So, I saw several stories at the time (late 90’s-early 00’s) that said that several labs were keeping blood/urine/whatever samples from Armstrong for future testing using more advanced methods that would inevitably be developed. Is there any evidence from those samples from that time period that he doped? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/45 "2012-08-24T18:19:48Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > So, I saw several stories at the time (late 90’s-early 00’s) that said that several labs were keeping blood/urine/whatever samples from Armstrong for future testing using more advanced methods that would inevitably be developed. > > Is there any evidence from those samples from that time period that he doped? Relevant article: > **[Michael Ashenden - NYVelocity](https://nyvelocity.com/articles/interviews/michael-ashenden/?null)** > > “No doubt Armstrong took EPO” "So there is no doubt in my mind he (Lance Armstrong) took EPO during the ’99 Tour."   Dr. Michael Ashenden began his career as... Read more » ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/46 "2012-08-24T18:20:22Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Who didn’t expect this to end this way? It’s like when I was a kid, it didn’t matter to the adults whether or not you did anything wrong, you would be punished until you admitted it, and then you would be punished for lying about it because you got tired of being punished. **He won when everybody else was cheating** , therefore he was cheating and that’s that. No evidence required. Just badger him until he admits or quits, or goes broke from paying lawyers to fight a never-ending battle he can’t win. Spoken like a true Steelers fan. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/47 "2012-08-24T18:24:26Z")
> [@drm](#): > > Also, this way all the gathered evidence will remain hidden. Why do you say so? Wouldn’t the USADA still be free to make its evidence public? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/48 "2012-08-24T18:29:31Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Relevant article: > > [Michael Ashenden - NYVelocity](http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden?null) Yep, that’s pretty convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/49 "2012-08-24T18:30:16Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I find the idea that LA would relinquish his Tour-de-France titles, his entire legacy, just because he’s tired of ‘fighting the good fight’; to be highly incredible. Lance Armstrong, tired??? Incredible. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/50 "2012-08-24T18:36:04Z")
I don’t know the details but my understanding is tat USADA does not have the authority so to speak, but that the “recommendation” will almost certainly be followed. I also find it hard to believe he would just give up like that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/51 "2012-08-24T19:03:09Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yep, that’s pretty convincing. Can you quote the convincing part? My eyes glazed over. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/52 "2012-08-24T19:46:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the convincing part? My eyes glazed over. TLDR version: Six samples of Armstrong’s urine from '99 tested positive for EPO after a test was developed for the drug in 2000. Armstrong claims the samples must’ve been tampered with, but the samples were part of a large set belonging to different athletes, and those samples were labled only by an ID number. The lab didn’t have access to which number matched which athlete, so its hard to see how someone could’ve known which samples to tamper with. Also the samples were tested as part of an academic study, and it was only after the fact that a reporter got Armstrong to release some of his paper-work with his ID number on it that they were linked to him. Its hard to see why someone in the lab would tamper with the samples to get at Armstrong, since they were supposed to stay anonymous in any case. And even had someone figured out which samples were Armstrong’s, the guy that invented the EPO test says he can’t think of a way to tamper with a sample so as to give a believable “false positive”. Seems pretty damning to me. Armstrong used EPO before the '99 Tour. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/53 "2012-08-24T19:46:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The following is not directed specifically at you, **Muffin**. I feel like I should have a paragraph along the following lines saved somewhere that I can just cut and paste into these threads. > > Yes, obviously it would be good if testing could catch all forms of doping but sadly not. > > The prime doping method till about 2001 was use of EPO. There was no test for EPO usage till then. When a test for EPO usage was developed and some of LA’s old samples were unofficially tested, they failed. > > From 2001 the prime doping method was autologous blood transfusions. There is still no clear test for autologous blood transfusions. There was no test at all until about the late 2000’s, by which time LA had retired. > > LA knows all this. So when LA says in relation to an allegation that he doped that he “has never failed a test”, he knows that this means nothing, but he also knows most of the public don’t know that. In other words, he is deliberately playing on ignorance. > > Even now all that can be done is to try to draw inferences about blood doping from examination of regular blood test results (the “blood passport” program). The blood passport program was in place by the time of LA’s comeback. According to the USADA’s prosecution brief, LA’s blood passport from that time shows he was blood doping during his comeback. This is one of the allegations LA is _too tired_ to fight. > > You want to know something truly interesting? Cycling has the best dope testing program of any sport in the world. Most don’t even have blood passport program. There is nothing at all but faith and hope standing between you and your belief that any endurance athlete _who is not a cyclist_ is not blood doping. To add to yours, also to know one in particular. He did test positive at least once during the 1999 Tour de France. The UCI accepted a back-dated Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE), which was also against the rules. This also points to something else, which is that the UCI as been complicit in the doping by riders for many years. Another most recent example is them trying to claim the USADA had no jurisdiction over Armstrong or the other five that are being prosecuted even though that’s clearly incorrect. It’s one of the big reasons there is a WADA and corresponding national agencies now, because you can’t trust the sports’ governing bodies to do drug tests when they know it will hurt their bottom line and have other negative impact if they convict stars of doping. I find all the complaints that it’s a witch-hunt, kangaroo court, etc, as perfect examples of how Armstrong’s campaign has worked. Withdrawing now instead of going to arbitration allows him to continue the fight in the court of public opinion with the best results for him. ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/54 "2012-08-24T19:54:45Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Why do you say so? Wouldn’t the USADA still be free to make its evidence public? You nailed me. I’m not sure. It certainly won’t come out in a trial though. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/55 "2012-08-24T19:59:44Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > The thing I don’t understand in all of this is what authority does USADA have to strip him of his medals? It seems like it should be up to the Tour De France officials to revoke his titles, not some independent agency. Does this authority extend to awards in the NFL, NBA, or MLB? Can they take away a Cy Young award or Golden Glove? > **[World Anti-Doping Agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Anti-Doping_Agency)** > > The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA; French: Agence mondiale antidopage, AMA) is an international organization co-founded by the governments of over 140 nations along with the International Olympic Committee based in Canada to promote, coordinate, and monitor the fight against drugs in sports. The agency's key activities include scientific research, education, development of anti-doping capacities, and monitoring of the World Anti-Doping Code, whose provisions are enforced by the UNESCO Interna... > [@](#): > > WADA is responsible for the World Anti-Doping Code, adopted by more than 600 sports organizations, including international sports federations, national anti-doping organizations, the IOC, and the International Paralympic Committee. > **[United States Anti-Doping Agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Anti-Doping_Agency)** > > The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA, yoo-SAH-duh) is a non-profit, non-governmental 501(c)(3): 59  organization and the national anti-doping organization (NADO) for the United States. To protect clean competition and the integrity of sport and prevent doping in the United States with a performance-enhancing substance, the USADA provides education, leads scientific initiatives, conducts testing, and oversees the results management process. Headquartered in Colorado Springs, Colorado, In 20... > [@](#): > > USADA is a signatory to, and responsible for implementation in the United States of, the World Anti-Doping Code, widely considered the basis for the strongest and strictest anti-doping programs in sports. WADA is responsible for the code. USADA is responsible for enforcement along with many other national agencies in other countries. UCI, which runs the ProTour (cycling), is also a signatory of the WADA code. From what I understand, being a signatory means the UCI has to honor the ban even for the people that aren’t Americans. One thing that gets overlooked is that Armstrong is not the only one being prosecuted for this. There are five others, including one current team director in Johan Bruyneel. Bruyneel is going to arbitration rather than giving up. Here is an article related to the jurisdiction issue where WADA explicitly backs USADA. There are many more. [http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12586/WADA-backs-USADAs-jurisdiction-in-ArmstrongUSPS-doping-investigation.aspx](http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12586/WADA-backs-USADAs-jurisdiction-in-ArmstrongUSPS-doping-investigation.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/56 "2012-08-24T20:01:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > TLDR version: > > Six samples of Armstrong’s urine from '99 tested positive for EPO after a test was developed for the drug in 2000. Armstrong claims the samples must’ve been tampered with, but the samples were part of a large set belonging to different athletes, and those samples were labled only by an ID number. The lab didn’t have access to which number matched which athlete, so its hard to see how someone could’ve known which samples to tamper with. > > Also the samples were tested as part of an academic study, and it was only after the fact that a reporter got Armstrong to release some of his paper-work with his ID number on it that they were linked to him. Its hard to see why someone in the lab would tamper with the samples to get at Armstrong, since they were supposed to stay anonymous in any case. > > And even had someone figured out which samples were Armstrong’s, the guy that invented the EPO test says he can’t think of a way to tamper with a sample so as to give a believable “false positive”. > > Seems pretty damning to me. Armstrong used EPO before the '99 Tour. These subsequent urine tests always strike me as something that Lance’s lawyer would shit on from 50,000 feet. Presence of a protein in a 6 yo urine sample? (and an endogenous protein at that, where you’re looking for small modifications to discriminate synthetic epo from normal epo). Seems like you could drop kick that into the weeds fifty different ways on both the science and the procedure. They had to have had substantially more than that up their sleeve to make Lance call it a day (as it sounds like they did). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/57 "2012-08-24T20:02:03Z")
A man who comes back from testicle cancer can take anything he wants. JMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/58 "2012-08-24T20:03:26Z")
> [@theR](#): > > One thing that gets overlooked is that Armstrong is not the only one being prosecuted for this. There are five others, including one current team director in Johan Bruyneel. Bruyneel is going to arbitration rather than giving up. Which is one reason the evidence is not being released yet, since it is still relevant to ongoing cases. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/59 "2012-08-24T20:10:53Z")
> [@theR](#): > > [World Anti-Doping Agency - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Anti-Doping_Agency) > [United States Anti-Doping Agency - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Anti-Doping_Agency) > WADA is responsible for the code. USADA is responsible for enforcement along with many other national agencies in other countries. UCI, which runs the ProTour (cycling), is also a signatory of the WADA code. From what I understand, being a signatory means the UCI has to honor the ban even for the people that aren’t Americans. > > One thing that gets overlooked is that Armstrong is not the only one being prosecuted for this. There are five others, including one current team director in Johan Bruyneel. Bruyneel is going to arbitration rather than giving up. > > Here is an article related to the jurisdiction issue where WADA explicitly backs USADA. There are many more. > [http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12586/WADA-backs-USADAs-jurisdiction-in-ArmstrongUSPS-doping-investigation.aspx](http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12586/WADA-backs-USADAs-jurisdiction-in-ArmstrongUSPS-doping-investigation.aspx) To add to this since I see there were so many questions about USADA’s authority, my understanding is that one of the biggest reason for UCI to sign the WADA anti-doping code is because it’s required for the Olympics. Though I don’t think they really wanted to get tough on doping or cede authority to an independent party, having cycling removed from the Olympics was even less desirable. (I’m not clear on the details of why the UCI also has to sign versus just the athletes, but I assume it has something to do with making sure anti-doping measures are enforced consistently and not just on the days they are participating in the Olympics.) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/60 "2012-08-24T20:11:06Z")
I’d feel good about this if they prosecuted and disqualified every single competitor until it turned out the riders/teams who finished 15th became the dope-free winners. Nah. The sport is tainted. I’ll assume whoever wins is using something they don’t have a test for yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=4)