# Lance Armstrong giving up the fight vs. USADA, may be stripped of his titles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 24, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447 "2012-08-24T02:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/61 "2012-08-24T20:32:21Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > A man who comes back from testicle cancer can take anything he wants. > > JMHO. Sure, he can, but he can’t go and win cycle races that are supposed to be clean with it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/62 "2012-08-24T20:33:18Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > These subsequent urine tests always strike me as something that Lance’s lawyer would shit on from 50,000 feet. Presence of a protein in a 6 yo urine sample? (and an endogenous protein at that, where you’re looking for small modifications to discriminate synthetic epo from normal epo). Seems like you could drop kick that into the weeds fifty different ways on both the science and the procedure. Well, I was summarizing the article. The guy that wrote it is the expert, and he seems pretty confident in the science. Note your talking about six samples of Lance’s that came back positive for EPO, while the bulk of the samples from other athletes didn’t. A single positive result for Lance might be easy to discount as a false positive. Similarly, if a large number of the other athletes samples came back positive, you could hypothesize that the test was vulnerable to false positives, and all of Lance’s were positive by chance. But the six samples taken from Armstrong coming back positive while most of the others (92%) didn’t, is pretty hard to explain in terms of some sort of problem with the test. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/63 "2012-08-24T20:47:04Z")
> [@](#): > > These subsequent urine tests always strike me as something that Lance’s lawyer would shit on from 50,000 feet. Presence of a protein in a 6 yo urine sample? (and an endogenous protein at that, where you’re looking for small modifications to discriminate synthetic epo from normal epo). Seems like you could drop kick that into the weeds fifty different ways on both the science and the procedure. > They had to have had substantially more than that up their sleeve to make Lance call it a day (as it sounds like they did). Read the link. It’s addressed. When the two are run out on a gel (gel electrophoresis), synthetic EPO and endogenous EPO are readily distinguishable (at least, according to the person in the interview.) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/64 "2012-08-24T21:00:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the convincing part? My eyes glazed over. Seriously, that’s a disappointing response. There’s a lot of misinformation flying back and forth on Armstrong, from people out to damn him come what may, and people out to back him whatever the evidence. The article is an interview with an informed, qualified and convincing expert outlining his reasons for believing that Armstrong used EPO. If you want to find out more, read it. If the conclusion is too upsetting for you, leaving you with no more of a come back than TLDR, that is your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/65 "2012-08-24T21:04:17Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > A man who comes back from testicle cancer can take anything he wants. > > JMHO. So he could’ve used a motorcycle if he wanted? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/66 "2012-08-24T21:05:12Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Seems pretty damning to me. Armstrong used EPO before the '99 Tour. It also shreds Ed Coyle’s bizarre pseudo-science about Armstrong being physically more efficient as a cyclist because he trained for 3+ hours a day (just like every other professional cyclist). ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/67 "2012-08-24T21:07:25Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Read the link. It’s addressed. When the two are run out on a gel (gel electrophoresis), synthetic EPO and endogenous EPO are readily distinguishable (at least, according to the person in the interview.) I read the link when it first came out, 3 yrs ago was it? Its bogosity has not changed with time - exercise physiologist Michael Ashenden talking about gels :p. Obviously one can discriminate synthetic EPO and endogenous EPO or we wouldn’t have a test for it would we? The point is that a urine sample years old doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as who can say what happens to the EPO PTM markers over that time? That’s before you get into the storage and handling of the sample. I meant it as something of an aside in any case, as there’s basically no doubt in my mind that LA was on the juice, but this particular evidence is counterproductive, witchfinder-general stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/68 "2012-08-24T21:14:23Z")
Watch out – he may be posting here. NPR just wondered what his legacy would be “now that he’s been labelled a Doper” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![csupp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@csupp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/csupp)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/69 "2012-08-24T21:19:32Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > A man who comes back from testicle cancer can take anything he wants. > > JMHO. See, as strange as it sounds, I think I’m feeling the exact opposite. I need to separate the intended message of the “Livestrong” movement from Lance Armstrong. Because the more I learn about Lance, the more I think he compromises the message of his own foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/70 "2012-08-24T21:24:28Z")
> [@csupp](#): > > See, as strange as it sounds, I think I’m feeling the exact opposite. I need to separate the intended message of the “Livestrong” movement from Lance Armstrong. Because the more I learn about Lance, the more I think he compromises the message of his own foundation. Seriously. He’s turned me from being anti- to pro-testicular cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/71 "2012-08-24T21:29:41Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > I read the link when it first came out, 3 yrs ago was it? Its bogosity has not changed with time - exercise physiologist Michael Ashenden talking about gels :p. Obviously one can discriminate synthetic EPO and endogenous EPO or we wouldn’t have a test for it would we? The point is that a urine sample years old doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as who can say what happens to the EPO PTM markers over that time? That’s before you get into the storage and handling of the sample. I’m not sure why you ask when it first came out, as the article has a date stamp right at the start (Fri, 04/03/2009) I’m also not sure if you’re being facetious (yes, the test does differentiate synth and natural EPO) but if not, what is your point? That degradation of the samples lead to natural EPO showing up as synth EPO but pretty much only for Armstrong’s samples? How rare! ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/72 "2012-08-24T21:59:00Z")
I’m amazed at how many people think Lance is admitting guilt. Quite the contrary. He’s simply not wasting his time or money fighting a witch hunt. I get the impression he will always claim his innocence. I don’t think he’ll ever get a fair hearing from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. Why shovel out money to lawyers in a hopeless case? Even if they take away the medals, Lance will be a champion in many, many peoples minds. > [@](#): > > “If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA’s process I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and – once and for all – put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance,” he said in a statement released Thursday. “I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair.” ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/73 "2012-08-24T22:10:35Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m amazed at how many people think Lance is admitting guilt. > > Quite the contrary. He’s simply not wasting his time or money fighting a witch hunt. I get the impression he will always claim his innocence. I don’t think he’ll ever get a fair hearing from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. Why shovel out money to lawyers in a hopeless case? > > Even if they take away the medals, Lance will be a champion in many, many peoples minds. What about it has been unfair? By the way, what medals are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/74 "2012-08-24T22:26:48Z")
All those Tour de France medals or trophys. Whatever they give out. The accusations and harassment have been going on for over 12 years. No amount of tests ever satisfied the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. Never failed a test, and they never proved anything. Yet, it’s been a stain against Armstrong his entire career. The guy is retired and they are still harassing him. How do you prove you’re innocent? Imagine this kind of witch hunt against Michael Jordan. Or John Elway. Usain Bolt. Never ending unproven accusations year after year. It would destroy any athlete’s career. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/75 "2012-08-24T22:30:35Z")
Now, I do have a question about this: they developed an EPO test in 2000. Armstrong participated in TdF’s after this, and his samples always came back clean. What’s the explanation? Also, have you read his personal statement? > **[Lance Armstrong](https://lancearmstrong.com/)** > > The official website of Lance Armstrong. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/76 "2012-08-24T22:46:24Z")
I just read the entire statement. I totally agree with Lance. He’s passed the tests year after year. Yet they still want to bring charges from all those years ago. It’s a no win situation. You can never prove a negative test result. Somebody will always claim the test was in error. Sounds like a turf war with Lance in the middle. > [@](#): > > As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA’s own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/77 "2012-08-24T22:59:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Now, I do have a question about this: they developed an EPO test in 2000. Armstrong participated in TdF’s after this, and his samples always came back clean. What’s the explanation?.. Autologous blood transfusion. Which they still don’t have a test for, if the [wiki for blood doping](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping) is to be believed. It’s a giant PITA, at least compared to EPO, but if you’ll get 5% more efficiency… And that’s assuming there isn’t an unknown doping method that hasn’t made the public eye yet. I don’t see why they haven’t been able to come up with a synthetic EPO that has the same number of polymorphisms as non-synthetic EPO. Hell, if there’s enough money in it, is it possible to use the athlete’s own DNA to make the EPO _in vitro_? Then inject that? Thanks for the link, **Gary Kumquat**. Extremely informative and a reminder of why I visit this site. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/78 "2012-08-24T23:02:51Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m amazed at how many people think Lance is admitting guilt. Yes, you probably are. But let’s be honest here…what would it take for you to to accept as beyond reasonable doubt that he doped? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/79 "2012-08-24T23:06:42Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I just read the entire statement. I totally agree with Lance. He’s passed the tests year after year. Yet they still want to bring charges from all those years ago. It’s a no win situation. You can never prove a negative test result. Somebody will always claim the test was in error. Have you bothered to read the thread? It’s not an issue of whether or not the test was in error, it’s that they didn’t have a good test at all. His not-positive tests are certainly some evidence that he didn’t dope, but to conclude this is a “witchhunt” requires ignoring all the other evidence that shows he did. And when it came time to actually put this evidence to the test (pun intended) in front of an abitrator, it just so happens that that was the first time Lance decided it wasn’t worth it. Lance wanted this thing fought in the court of public opinion because of people like you. But when he had a legitimate chance to clear his name, he ran away. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/80 "2012-08-24T23:10:01Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Thanks for the link, **Gary Kumquat**. Extremely informative and a reminder of why I visit this site. You’re welcome. Just for shits, giggles and frankly depression, I also present this link on the likelihood of Usain Bolt (but actually pretty much every top level athlete) doping: > **[Is Usain Bolt on Steroids? | Muscle Week](http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids/)** So, let’s be clear. Did Armstrong dope? Almost certainly. Did everyone else in the tour at the time dope? Yup, pretty much. Other sports? Well, you tell me what the odds are. Does it still happen? Well, it’s been documented time and again that it’s a fuck of a lot harder to test for performance enhancers than it is to use them in a covert manner. We’ve got feck knows how many examples of athletes caught out. I hate to think about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=5)