# Lance Armstrong giving up the fight vs. USADA, may be stripped of his titles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 24, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447 "2012-08-24T02:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/141 "2012-08-26T16:38:43Z")
Armstrong was in a race this weekend. One **not** controlled by the USADA. 😉 I admire his strategy. I think Lance is betting that the international cycling groups won’t bow to the USADA’s proclamation. This turf war may get real interesting. Lance hasn’t _officially_ lost those victories yet. 😉 Nike is still supporting Lance too. > **[Nike, fans stand behind Lance Armstrong](https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-xpm-2012-aug-24-la-sp-sn-nike-lance-armstrong-20120824-story.html)** > > Nike, fans stand behind Lance Armstrong Also people continue to support Lance’s Live Strong Foundation. That’s what really matters. Battling cancer is a lot more important then this cycling stuff. > **[Lance Armstrong decides to skip marathon](https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-xpm-2012-aug-26-la-sp-sn-lance-armstrong-marathon-20120825-story.html)** > > Lance Armstrong decides to skip marathon > [@](#): > > Lance Armstrong decided to rest Sunday, a day after taking second place in a 36-mile mountain bike race and two days removed from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency levying a lifetime ban and stripping the seven-time Tour de France winner of his titles. > [@](#): > > And he appears to have the public on his side. On Friday, his Livestrong foundation received 400 donations totaling about $75,000. > [@](#): > > Nike, in a statement, said: “Lance has stated his innocence and has been unwavering on this position. Nike plans to continue to support Lance and the Lance Armstrong Foundation, a foundation that Lance created to serve cancer survivors.” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/142 "2012-08-26T16:45:56Z")
That’s the thing. He’s guilty. But he’s an incredible man and athlete. Drugs didn’t push him and drive him through all the training and pain over his life. I’ll continue to think well of him. He was doping though. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/143 "2012-08-26T16:54:05Z")
That’s a good point. How much would have the steroids boosted performance? 5%, 10%? The athletes couldn’t take very much or it would have been caught. It’s not like the unregulated 1980’s when guys were juicing non-stop. Lance still put in thousands of hours roadwork and training. He still went through the agony of those mountains in the Tour de France.races. He was competing against guys that were doping. Those wins were legit wins. The USADA can never take that away from Lance. Record books don’t matter. The world knows he won those races. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/144 "2012-08-26T17:07:07Z")
I don’t care if Lance is guilty or not. He won those Tours; no witch-hunters are going to take away the memory and excitement of Armstrong winning those Tours. Here’s why the USADA is a kangeroo court: they accept evidence that would be woefully inadequate for any criminal trial, they have no statute of limitations or the equivalent, and there’s no double jeopardy rules. They can hound and hound Armstrong until he’s a decaying corpse, until science or enough self-serving wanna-be book authors can “implicate” Armstrong, as long as it takes. This is not justice. And, yes, it is ruining the sport. Who can be a fan of a sport where results can be overturned by some obsessed tribunal\* thirteen fucking years\* after they happened? It’s nonsense. And there is the very serious problem of who is now the “winner” of those Tours? Alex ZĂŒlle? Doper. Jan Ullrich? Doper. Joseba Beloki? Doper. Ivan Basso? Doper. Alexandre Vinokourov? Doper. Etc. And what about the previous Tours? Bjarne Riis confessed to doping. Jan Ullrich? Oh, right. Doper. Pantani? Doper. Armstrong is being singled out. Do you just keep DQing people until you find the guy who finished 87th who you can’t find anyone to confess “I doped and so did he!” Probably, they all doped. And I say, let them. I’d rather let them dope than see results be overturned more than decade after they happened. I’ve been a fan of this sport for almost three decades (since the LeMond era). I’m not watching another Tour, Giro, Vuelta, or Classic until these anti-doping tribunals learn about how the rules of justice are supposed to actually function. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/145 "2012-08-26T17:23:03Z")
I have more respect for the people who confessed than those that just deny, deny, deny. Especially those who deny, deny, deny until every last chance to suppress the evidence has been denied, and the truth is about to come out, and then they quit. I have no respect for those kind of people at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/146 "2012-08-26T17:25:40Z")
How can you possibly claim Lance is being singled out while in the same breath list a who’s who of his competitors who have served doping suspensions and had results stripped from them? ---
**Author:** ![Shearer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/57b2e6/32.png) [@Shearer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shearer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/147 "2012-08-26T17:32:50Z")
I love the idea that eye witness testimony is not enough to catch dopers when it’s good enough to charge people in criminal courts for the worst of crimes. The hold his myth has over people is quite worrying. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/148 "2012-08-26T17:45:03Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Lance still put in thousands of hours roadwork and training. He still went through the agony of those mountains in the Tour de France.races. He was competing against guys that were doping. Those wins were legit wins. The USADA can never take that away from Lance. Record books don’t matter. The world knows he won those races. So, you have no sympathy at all for the guys who put in thousands of hours of training, but who couldn’t compete because they weren’t cheating? The world now knows the results of those races were utterly meaningless, and should be treated as such. It’s pointless to promote second place. Of the 70 riders who finished in the top ten at Tours Armstrong won, about 40 have tested positive for banned substances. Armstrong shouldn’t be singled out here, there was a culture of cheating. He did, however, reap the greatest benefits from it. The challenge now is to change that culture, and stripping Armstrong of his results is an important part of that. Anecdotally, it appears that cycling has had some success. Time trial performance is not what it was in the Armstrong days. I find it strange so many people are defending a fraud, and find it hard to imagine a politician or businessman being treated the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/149 "2012-08-26T17:51:23Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > How can you possibly claim Lance is being singled out while in the same breath list a who’s who of his competitors who have served doping suspensions and had results stripped from them? Because those others had very clear evidence against them: evidence that would stand up in a criminal court proceeding. And, no, not all of them had results stripped. What Jan Ullrich results were stripped from his TdF victory and podium finishes? Uh, none. ZĂŒlle? None. Riis? None. Pantani? None. Have any of Zabel’s Green Jerseys been stripped? No. You see my point? Their results haven’t been stripped. Landis, yes, Contador, yes. But they weren’t podium finishers in the Armstrong era of Tour dominance. Note also that Contador’s and Landis’s Tour wins were stripped with a year or two of the finish. Not _thirteen fucking years_ later. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/150 "2012-08-26T17:56:45Z")
> [@Shearer](#): > > I love the idea that eye witness testimony is not enough to catch dopers when it’s good enough to charge people in criminal courts for the worst of crimes. Charge, yes. Convict? Not necessarily. Not also that the U.S. has double jeopardy laws and statutes of limitations: most offenses have a 7 year statute of limitations (many, in fact, are only two). > [@](#): > > The hold his myth has over people is quite worrying. :rolleyes: Overturning results from a previous decade is bad for the sport. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Markfallsphd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Markfallsphd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markfallsphd)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/151 "2012-08-26T18:00:20Z")
I too have been a Lance fan but come on! His defense has always been that he has never failed a drug list
which may or may not be true (USADA says now they have evidence beyond the testimony of fellow riders
we will see). The vehemence with which he has used that defense made it worth (for me) listening too. However it is now being discussed how difficult is was to find Lance at times he was required to produce a urine specimen
time enough to use some one else’s urine by “strapping up” perhaps??..(obviously he would not have been to avoid post- race dope control but during the off season and weeks prior to big races this theory would apply) which brings up the question
were the urine collections observed
meaning was what was in the urine bottle from Lance’s body? This is important because there are a vast number a ways to fake a drug test
and when the stakes are high the creativity would astound you
I have some experience with this creativity in my work as a psychologist with substance abusing teenagers in the outpatient treatment program I run. The only heartburn about Lance going down is it’s reflection on the good things he’s done off the bike. Mark ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/152 "2012-08-26T18:01:40Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > So, you have no sympathy at all for the guys who put in thousands of hours of training, but who couldn’t compete because they weren’t cheating? > > The world now knows the results of those races were utterly meaningless, and should be treated as such. It’s pointless to promote second place. Of the 70 riders who finished in the top ten at Tours Armstrong won, about 40 have tested positive for banned substances. Armstrong shouldn’t be singled out here, there was a culture of cheating. He did, however, reap the greatest benefits from it. The challenge now is to change that culture, and stripping Armstrong of his results is an important part of that. Anecdotally, it appears that cycling has had some success. Time trial performance is not what it was in the Armstrong days. > > I find it strange so many people are defending a fraud, and find it hard to imagine a politician or businessman being treated the same way. Well, we not only forgave Arnold Schwarzenegger for his gratuitous use of steroids during his competitive days, but Californians elected him Gov. President Obama was a bit of a pothead in his younger days. Bush was a drunk driver and cocaine user before that. Most Westerners regularly live better through pharmaceuticals. Maybe we don’t care quite as much as we say we do? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/153 "2012-08-26T18:05:33Z")
Most of the doping tests are drawn from blood. Armstrong’s blood was drawn more often and in greater quantities than any other athlete in any sport ever. So, you overturn Armstrong’s 1999 TdF win. What, are you now giving it to Alex ZĂŒlle, a confessed doper, and a rider who was implicated in the [1998 “Festina affair”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair)? Give it to Fernando EscartĂ­n, another doper? It doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Shearer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/57b2e6/32.png) [@Shearer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shearer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/154 "2012-08-26T18:09:11Z")
Saying ’ but what about the tests’ enough times isn’t going to make the charges go away. Those don’t need to be given to anybody else. They obviously shouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/155 "2012-08-26T18:10:53Z")
Actually, let’s consider Contador. His 2010 TdF was stripped. What about his 2007 and 2009 wins? They still stand. WTF? Does anyone seriously believe he was doping only in 2010 but not in 2007 and 2009? Why haven’t those results been stripped? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/156 "2012-08-26T18:11:53Z")
> [@Shearer](#): > > Saying ’ but what about the tests’ enough times isn’t going to make the charges go away. > > Those don’t need to be given to anybody else. They obviously shouldn’t be. So, you’ll say that the Tours from 1999-2005 were won by 
 nobody? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/157 "2012-08-26T18:16:02Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, we not only forgave Arnold Schwarzenegger for his gratuitous use of steroids during his competitive days, but Californians elected him Gov. President Obama was a bit of a pothead in his younger days. Bush was a drunk driver and cocaine user before that. Most Westerners regularly live better through pharmaceuticals. Maybe we don’t care quite as much as we say we do? Not the same thing at all, with the exception of Schwarzenegger and bodybuilding, which hardly anyone gives a damn about. The issue isn’t use of drugs, it’s systemic cheating. How exactly did Obama taking a toke help him become president? > [@Knorf](#): > > So, you’ll say that the Tours from 1999-2005 were won by 
 nobody? Yes, that would be the best thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Shearer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/57b2e6/32.png) [@Shearer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shearer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/158 "2012-08-26T18:16:08Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > So, you’ll say that the Tours from 1999-2005 were won by 
 nobody? Yes. I have no issue if they were left empty. It would be a fitting ‘tribute’ to that era. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/159 "2012-08-26T18:36:31Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Not the same thing at all, with the exception of Schwarzenegger and bodybuilding, which hardly anyone gives a damn about. The issue isn’t use of drugs, it’s systemic cheating. How exactly did Obama taking a toke help him become president? Well, in the case of bodybuilding, “everybody does it” is a valid excuse. Everyone does. You aren’t cheating anyone. You’re keeping up with your peers. What was Armstrong doing really? It’s just my supposition I guess but if he were cheating he’d have kept his sleazy doping activities to himself. It sounds like he spent a lot of time trading info and tips and generally oversharing with the other top competitors. Was he really cheating, or making sure everyone in that top group had a chance to keep “fair.” I tend to think the bottom 150 racers would be the bottom 150 racers doping or not. Armstrong and the other top racers doping seems like it was something between them. Of course we can say “why dope at all then?” I don’t have an answer to that. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/160 "2012-08-26T19:13:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, in the case of bodybuilding, “everybody does it” is a valid excuse. Everyone does. You aren’t cheating anyone. You’re keeping up with your peers. Personally, that’s one of the reasons I don’t consider professional body-building to be a valid sport. Sporting bodies have a duty of care towards competitors, and steroid abuse can have some very nasty [side effects](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid#Adverse_effects). Encouraging competitive self abuse should be condemned. I’ve bolded a few highlights below. > [@](#): > > Anabolic steroids can cause many adverse effects. Depending on the length of drug abuse, there is a chance that the **immune system** can be damaged. Most of these side-effects are dose-dependent, the most common being **elevated blood pressure** , especially in those with pre-existing hypertension,[39] and harmful changes in cholesterol levels: Some steroids cause an increase in LDL “bad” cholesterol and a decrease in HDL “good” cholesterol.[40] Anabolic steroids have been shown to alter fasting blood sugar and glucose tolerance tests.[41] Anabolic steroids such as testosterone also increase the risk of **cardiovascular disease** [2] or **coronary artery disease**.[42][43] Acne is fairly common among anabolic steroid users, mostly due to stimulation of the sebaceous glands by increased testosterone levels.[44][45] Conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) can accelerate the rate of premature baldness for males genetically predisposed, but testosterone itself can produce baldness in females.[46] > > High doses of oral anabolic steroid compounds can cause **liver damage** , as the steroids are metabolized (17α-alkylated) in the digestive system to increase their bioavailability and stability.[3] > > There are also sex-specific side-effects of anabolic steroids. Development of breast tissue in males, a condition called gynecomastia (which is usually caused by high levels of circulating estradiol), may arise because of increased conversion of testosterone to estradiol by the enzyme aromatase.[47] **Reduced sexual function** and temporary infertility can also occur in males.[48][49][50] Another male-specific side-effect that can occur is testicular atrophy, caused by the suppression of natural testosterone levels, which inhibits production of sperm (most of the mass of the testes is developing sperm). This side-effect is temporary: The size of the testicles usually returns to normal within a few weeks of discontinuing anabolic steroid use as normal production of sperm resumes.[51] Female-specific side-effects include increases in body hair, permanent deepening of the voice, enlarged clitoris, and temporary decreases in menstrual cycles. When **taken during pregnancy, anabolic steroids can affect fetal development** by causing the development of male features in the female fetus and female features in the male fetus.[52] > > A number of **severe side-effects can occur if adolescents use anabolic steroids**. > For example, the steroids may prematurely stop the lengthening of bones (premature epiphyseal fusion through increased levels of estrogen metabolites), resulting in **stunted growth**. Other effects include, but are not limited to, accelerated bone maturation, increased frequency and duration of erections, and premature sexual development. Anabolic steroid use in adolescence is also correlated with poorer attitudes related to health.[53] I don’t know what the next performance-enhancing drug will be, and what side effects it will have. But putting young sports-people in a position where they must choose between their health and competitiveness is not something that should be tolerated. > [@levdrakon](#): > > What was Armstrong doing really? It’s just my supposition I guess but if he were cheating he’d have kept his sleazy doping activities to himself. It sounds like he spent a lot of time trading info and tips and generally oversharing with the other top competitors. Was he really cheating, or making sure everyone in that top group had a chance to keep “fair.” Cycling is a team sport, it’s impossible for a individual to win the tour without support. Unless I’ve missed something, Armstrong certainly wasn’t sharing anything to give his competitors an advantage. > [@levdrakon](#): > > I tend to think the bottom 150 racers would be the bottom 150 racers doping or not. Armstrong and the other top racers doping seems like it was something between them. It’s simply impossible to answer, which renders the results meaningless. Was Armstrong the best athlete, or simply the one with the best doping regime? Sport is only meaningful because we make it so, it doesn’t actually _matter_ who can cycle up a hill the quickest. Doping robs sport of authenticity, fairness and inclusiveness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=9)