# Lance Armstrong giving up the fight vs. USADA, may be stripped of his titles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 24, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447 "2012-08-24T02:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/161 "2012-08-26T19:17:52Z")
I hope that eventually people come to their senses and permit as much doping as atheletes want. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/162 "2012-08-26T19:20:13Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Sport is only meaningful because we make it so, it doesn’t actually _matter_ who can cycle up a hill the quickest. Doping robs sport of authenticity, fairness and inclusiveness. Sorry, it’s just not meaningful. You need silly rules like this to try and make it seem more meaningful but it never will. I find not allowing artificial help to be a bit reminiscint of eugenics actually. Which we shouldn’t forget the modern games was all about. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/163 "2012-08-26T19:27:26Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Cycling is a team sport, it’s impossible for a individual to win the tour without support. Unless I’ve missed something, Armstrong certainly wasn’t sharing anything to give his competitors an advantage. I thought Lance the Blabbermouth’s activities were well known among the whole lot, when they weren’t busy getting busted themselves that is. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/164 "2012-08-26T19:33:53Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > I find not allowing artificial help to be a bit reminiscint of eugenics actually. Which we shouldn’t forget the modern games was all about. If there is a coherent argument here, I’m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/165 "2012-08-26T20:44:05Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Most of the doping tests are drawn from blood. Armstrong’s blood was drawn more often and in greater quantities than any other athlete in any sport ever. That’s just an Armstrong talking point. There is no proof whatsoever that it’s true. He is most likely not even the most tested cyclist from the USA. If you look at the USADA site, Hincapie, Leipheimer, and Kristin Armstrong (no relation) all have taken more tests than Lance Armstrong over the same time period. Armstrong has claimed to have been tested at least 500 times, which is blatantly false. [http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the-500/](http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the-500/) People should stop posting Armstrong press release talking points as fact. > [@](#): > > So, you overturn Armstrong’s 1999 TdF win. What, are you now giving it to Alex Zülle, a confessed doper, and a rider who was implicated in the [1998 “Festina affair”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair)? Give it to Fernando Escartín, another doper? > > It doesn’t make any sense. Give it to nobody is my opinion, leave them vacant. However, the whole reason USADA and WADA exist is to investigate doping. They can’t just ignore it when presented with a boatload of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/166 "2012-08-26T20:51:08Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Cycling is a team sport, it’s impossible for a individual to win the tour without support. Unless I’ve missed something, Armstrong certainly wasn’t sharing anything to give his competitors an advantage. Right. The charges against Armstrong and five others were for a team-wide doping program. He wanted all his domestiques doped too so the team supporting him would be stronger. These were the actual charges against him, and it’s because of team-wide use not because of sharing with riders from other teams: (1)Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents. (2)Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents. (3)Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids. (4)Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone. (5)Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations. > [@](#): > > It’s simply impossible to answer, which renders the results meaningless. Was Armstrong the best athlete, or simply the one with the best doping regime? > > Sport is only meaningful because we make it so, it doesn’t actually _matter_ who can cycle up a hill the quickest. Doping robs sport of authenticity, fairness and inclusiveness. Besides the question of the best doping routine, even those on the same doping program react differently. Some just naturally benefit more from EPO use than others. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/167 "2012-08-26T21:59:09Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > If there is a coherent argument here, I’m not seeing it. Think about it - at a sporting victory basically rewards genetics and luck. Hard work is important too but **all** atheletes work hard. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/168 "2012-08-26T22:59:08Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Most of the doping tests are drawn from blood. Armstrong’s blood was drawn more often and in greater quantities than any other athlete in any sport ever. Garbage. [**The Legend of the 500**](http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the-500/) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/169 "2012-08-26T23:04:07Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Think about it - at a sporting victory basically rewards genetics and luck. Hard work is important too but **all** atheletes work hard. So if two athletes are similarly gifted as far as talent and work ethic, we should allow PEDs to determine the “better” of the two? What’s next in your world, cross-breeding breeding mutants for specific (sports?) accomplishments? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/170 "2012-08-26T23:39:17Z")
For those interested in getting the facts in this case, this a great podcast involving – amongst others, David Walsh, author of the then ‘controversial’ LA Confidentiel – both, pro & against, Lance commentators. [**On Lance’s case.**](http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/qt/?title=Lance+Armstrong+Analysis,+interviews+w/+David+Walsh+&+Doug+Ullman&dashboard=&id=velorooms.com/files/bbc_radio_five_live_ullman_slater_walsh_240812.mp3&yr=2012) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/171 "2012-08-26T23:59:16Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Here’s why the USADA is a kangeroo court: they accept evidence that would be woefully inadequate for any criminal trial Like what exactly? As I understand it, the evidence they have put together is eyewitnesses and scientific data based on tests in the comeback years, and evidence about financial transactions. Exactly what of this would not be admissible in court? It all sounds admissible to me, in principle, and I’m curious as to what you know about the evidence that makes you think it inadequate. > [@](#): > > …they have no statute of limitations or the equivalent Firstly, do you accept there would have been nothing wrong with pursuing LA over his doping in 08/09? If not, you clearly aren’t being straight with yourself. Secondly, so what, really? Whether there is a limitation period for any given offence is a matter of policy: they exist for some things but not all. That the USADA might not have a limitation does not make it a kangaroo court. > [@](#): > > … and there’s no double jeopardy rules Aren’t there? I don’t know. Do you have a cite? And even if they don’t, so what? LA hasn’t been charged before with what he’s being charged with now. You have no evidence they _would_ try more than once to convict him if they failed the first time. The whole “kangaroo court” thing is just LA talking point bullshit, same as the “most tested” and “500 times” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/172 "2012-08-27T00:47:19Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Aren’t there? I don’t know. Do you have a cite? And even if they don’t, so what? LA hasn’t been charged before with what he’s being charged with now. You have no evidence they _would_ try more than once to convict him if they failed the first time. Well, other than they already tested him at the time of the event and declared him the winner. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/173 "2012-08-27T00:52:30Z")
Which has already been explained almost a thousand times. They take samples for two purposes, for present-day testing and to save for future advancements in testing technology. Don’t be intentionally obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/174 "2012-08-27T01:21:35Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Well, other than they already tested him at the time of the event and declared him the winner. Evidencing some sort of basic understanding of the concept of double jeopardy before commenting on the subject would be nice. Seriously, anyone who is going to post here to say that the USADA is a kangaroo court needs to think more about the fact that LA just had his lawyers argue precisely that in a US Federal Court in his home town, which court said that the USADA would give him a fair hearing. You need to think about that, mull it over, get entirely to grips with what it means for the stance that the USADA is a kangaroo court and then _give it up_ for goodness sake. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/175 "2012-08-27T01:34:22Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Like what exactly? As I understand it, the evidence they have put together is eyewitnesses and scientific data based on tests in the comeback years, and evidence about financial transactions. Exactly what of this would not be admissible in court? It all sounds admissible to me, in principle, and I’m curious as to what you know about the evidence that makes you think it inadequate. Two letters. OJ. OJ’s dream team tore apart the LAPD crime lab. Now picture what Lance’s attorneys would do with regards to chain of custody of the samples, the science that the samples were still viable after this amount of time\*, the storage conditions of those samples for a start. Oh, and I forgot, getting other riders to rat out Lance in return for not being banned themselves. Yeah no coercion there. \*hint, there isn’t any ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/176 "2012-08-27T01:47:30Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Two letters. OJ. OJ’s dream team tore apart the LAPD crime lab. > Now picture what Lance’s attorneys would do with regards to chain of custody of the samples, the science that the samples were still viable after this amount of time\*, the storage conditions of those samples for a start. > Oh, and I forgot, getting other riders to rat out Lance in return for not being banned themselves. Yeah no coercion there. We will never know what the arbitrators in an USADA arbitration would have accepted becase LA decided not to require arbitration. You may be right, LA’s legal team may have succeeded in getting much of USADA’s evidence thrown out. How does what you are saying make a USADA arbitration a “kangaroo court”? Further, while you no doubt don’t believe it, as I’ve said upthread I’d be pretty sure LA’s legal team advised LA that they couldn’t defend the USADA’s case. Both \*\*Muffin \*\*and I (both of us working lawyers) reached this conclusion. You can swallow LA’s “I got tired” line if you choose. Stilll further, you seem to be labouring under the illusion that the USADA’s case was based on testing of very old samples. It wasn’t. Really, you need to read some background and/or this thread. Finally, I have never given you shit about this before, but I remember you triumphantly pointing me at an expert paid by Floyd Landis explaining how his test results didn’t show he was doping. Floyd Landis. Heh. I think I might trust my own judgment over yours, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/177 "2012-08-27T02:09:33Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Two letters. OJ. OJ’s dream team tore apart the LAPD crime lab. > Now picture what Lance’s attorneys would do with regards to chain of custody of the samples, the science that the samples were still viable after this amount of time\*, the storage conditions of those samples for a start. > Oh, and I forgot, getting other riders to rat out Lance in return for not being banned themselves. Yeah no coercion there. > > \*hint, there isn’t any Okay, this is just dumb. Are you saying that an independent body that governs the testing of the use of prohibited performance enhancing drugs should have evidentiary proceedings at the same level or above those required for murder cases? That body that the athletes knowingly and willingly submit to routine testing, and agree as a part of their participation to undergo and abide by the regulations which prohibit those substances and mandate the testing? Because from what I have read in links in this very thread, it seems like their standards are pretty up to par, and there has not been any evidence of tampering, or even that anyone knew they were Armstrong’s samples when the presence of EPO was discovered. However. Armstrong’s legal team DOES HAVE an opportunity to refute the validity of all of that evidence…had he continued through the process which he withdrew from. The fact that other riders also said that they knew of him doping doesn’t somehow refute the fact that the testing showed him to be doping. He chose not to pursue that route and instead is crying in the media about the unfairness of it all, when he has an opportunity to present his case that the evidence against him is insufficient and has chosen not to. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/178 "2012-08-27T02:17:33Z")
**ladyfoxfyre** , don’t confuse the position further by assuming that \*\*Rick’s \*\* assumption that testing of old samples was the basis of the USADA’s case is correct. It isn’t. I agree with what you are saying, in the theoretical, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that testing of old samples isn’t even an issue here. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/179 "2012-08-27T02:21:46Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > **ladyfoxfyre** , don’t confuse the position further by assuming that \*\*Rick’s \*\* assumption that testing of old samples was the basis of the USADA’s case is correct. It isn’t. I agree with what you are saying, in the theoretical, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that testing of old samples isn’t even an issue here. I know it isn’t. I just think the assertion that Armstrong isn’t getting an opportunity to refute the evidence is pretty stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447/180 "2012-08-27T02:40:22Z")
Certainly I think that it sits ill in the mouth of any LA supporter to tell us what evidence coulda, woulda, shoulda been thrown out, when LA had the opportunity to make that happen and didn’t take it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-giving-up-the-fight-vs-usada-may-be-stripped-of-his-titles/632447.md?page=10)