# "Land of the Free, home of the Brave" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794 "2011-01-16T03:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/21 "2011-01-16T15:39:35Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > You don’t need to carry or produce said license. Sorry, I know this is a hijack, but I’m curious. If you get pulled over for speeding or whatnot, the police don’t verify in some way that you have a license? They just take your word for it? Or do they look it up on their computers, or what? (I have been pulled over here in the US having left my purse at home, and they didn’t haul me into jail, I just told them my name and they verified that I was a licensed driver, no big deal.) Is that standard in the UK? RE cashing checks without ID, this also seems strange to me. The reason the banks want ID is so that any random thief can’t steal your check, claim to be you, and cash it. My bank (USAA) allows me to scan my checks at home to deposit them, but the name on the check has to match the name on the account, I can’t just deposit anyone’s check into my account. /hijack I do feel like the US is freer than some other countries, but I also think we have developed a lot of bullshit laws that reduce freedom (DUI for sleeping it off in the backseat of your car, anyone?) I’d say currently we’re pretty much the same, freedom wise, as the rest of the developed western world. Braver? Meh, some people are brave, some are not, hard to generalize about such a varied population. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/22 "2011-01-16T15:41:38Z")
I think the US is less free than many other developed countries… 1. US citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba 2. US citizens who do not live in the USA still have to pay US taxes… even if they _never_ lived in the USA. 3. Traveling by air in the US is certainly more restrictive than elsewhere in the world. But there are still millions of people chanting USA! USA! USA! ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/23 "2011-01-16T15:58:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You do need to produce it, either at the stop or within 5 days. I think it’s 7 days; however to clarify, in Britain a traffic cop will only ask to see a license if he suspects some infraction, either of the vehicle or driving. I am sure that many safe middle class drivers driving nice cars up to their 80s have never once been asked to show their license. I looked up, but failed to verify that people driving before 1934 were never required to take tests or have a license for the rest of the 20th century, but was unsuccessful: it may be a rumour. However on Wiki, I did discover: _The first locality to require a mandatory driving licence and testing was Prussia, on 29 September 1903. The Dampfkesselüberwachungsverein (“steam boiler supervision association”) was charged with conducting the tests, which were mainly concerned with the drivers’ mechanical aptitude. In 1910, the German imperial government mandated the licensing of drivers on a national scale, establishing a system of tests and driver’s education requirements that would serve as a model for the licensing laws of other countries._ Why am I not surprised ? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/24 "2011-01-16T16:07:09Z")
Have you read this thread from a couple of months ago? [US. The freest country in the world. Really?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=585673) To summarize: It depends on how you define freedom. And, freedom is part of the national identity of the USA, for largely historical reasons, moreso than it is for many other countries. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/25 "2011-01-16T16:31:21Z")
[QUOTE=Candyman74] You don’t need to carry or produce said license. [/QUOTE] I find this a bit hard to credit. You never need to produce your license? So…how do the police give you a traffic violation? Based solely on the license plate of the vehicle? I know from having been to the UK that there are a bewildering (to me) number of license types (even licenses, IIRC, for manual or automatic transmission). I find it hard to believe that, having gone to the trouble of such a complex system that it’s then not used. I also know that (like in the US) you can drive without a license on private land, but that a license is required (well, I was required to have one) to drive on public lands. Maybe I’ll start a GQ thread on this so as not to hijack this thread. > [@](#): > > I think that many in the UK do indeed (falsely) think of themselves as a nation as possssing superior qualities to the rest of the world. In no means would I dare suggest it was a US phenonemon only; but the board is 95% Americans or something. Right…but aside from a few gung ho type posters, how often do you have ‘Land of the Free, Home of the Brave’ thrown in your face here? > [@](#): > > I have not said this, no. Right…but do you feel less ‘free’ than Americans, French, Germans, etc etc? At a guess, the answer is ‘no’. Nor do your fellow citizens (again, at a guess). That’s the point. I don’t feel less free than you either, and in fact I feel more so, because the things that you might look on as hampering my freedom (say, the license thing) I look on as simply normal and I accept (for the most part) the reasoning behind them. Same for things you consider normal and accept as just part of being a UK citizen…some, to me, seem a damper on your freedom (the large scale use of CCTV in public areas, for instance). -XT ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/26 "2011-01-16T16:35:53Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Right. Which was written during and about a time when the Revolutionary War was still fresh in the national conscience and we were again at war with Britain and under threat of the restoration of the tyrannical rule of the British monarchy were we to lose. > > We really _were_ a brave and free country then. And remained so, more or less, until about the middle half of the 20th century. Now we are pretty complacent in my view. > > ETA…beaten by **Little Nemo**! _cough_slavery_cough_ ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/27 "2011-01-16T16:42:06Z")
People like their child better than the children of other people, even though other people’s children are objectively better by all appearances. Yes, Americans in general _feel_ they are freer and braver. Key word: feel. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/28 "2011-01-16T16:49:54Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > It’s just a slogan that comes from the national anthem. > > After all, do Canadians think of themselves as “glorious and free”? Technically it’s “our land” that is glorious and free\*; we’re still under the Queen. \*and it’s “God,” whose keeping 'er that way! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/29 "2011-01-16T16:50:54Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > _cough_slavery_cough_ Yes, we were a little late in the game getting the memo about slavery. Give us a break, we’re only 235 years old! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/30 "2011-01-16T17:11:13Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I think the US is less free than many other developed countries… > > 1. US citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba Not true. > [@](#): > > 1. US citizens who do not live in the USA still have to pay US taxes… even if they _never_ lived in the USA. Sometimes, but not always. Depends on how much tax you pay in the country you live in. > [@](#): > > 1. Traveling by air in the US is certainly more restrictive than elsewhere in the world. “Restrictive” in what way? I travel all the time w/o any restrictions other than rules about what can be carried on. But this is something that changes with the times. > [@](#): > > But there are still millions of people chanting USA! USA! USA! Maybe. But there are a lot more people dying to get into this country every year. Go figure. At any rate, as others have noted, this was written 200 years ago, and it’s just a slogan anyway. But it does give a lot of people a good excuse to bash America and Americans I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/31 "2011-01-16T17:25:44Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > _cough_slavery_cough_ I did say the _average_ American. And again, it was 1814. Slavery was still around in a lot of countries, including the British Empire. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/32 "2011-01-16T17:39:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I did say the _average_ American. And again, it was 1814. Slavery was still around in a lot of countries, including the British Empire. Well… then to push the point [in 1810](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Distribution_of_slaves) the total US population was ~7.2 million, of which ~1.2 were slaves. That’s a pretty big footnote. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/33 "2011-01-16T17:40:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not true. I am a US citizen and if I were to simply go to Cuba for tourism and come back to the US (and write “Cuba” on the form for countries visited), I would very likely be fined and could be put in prison under the law. This is not freedom… no other developed country restricts it’s citizens like this. I know Americans can use 3rd countries to go and such, but if the US finds out you can be in trouble. Not very free in my mind. I lived in the UAE and paid zero tax there (because the UAE does not levy taxes on anyone)… yet I had to pay tax in the USA each year even though I didn’t set foot in the USA for several years. This doesn’t sound very free to me. Brits, Aussies and others there did not pay tax to their home countries. In the US to get on a plane I have to remove my shoes, take off my belt, coat, remove my wallet, remove my laptop, go through a nude-o-scope or be patted down. In Dubai I don’t have to do nay of that. Just walk through the magnetometer and put by bag (fully packed) through an xray. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/34 "2011-01-16T17:57:54Z")
[quote=“Desert\_Nomad, post:33, topic:567794”] I am a US citizen and if I were to simply go to Cuba for tourism and come back to the US (and write “Cuba” on the form for countries visited), I would very likely be fined and could be put in prison under the law. This is not freedom… no other developed country restricts it’s citizens like this. I know Americans can use 3rd countries to go and such, but if the US finds out you can be in trouble. [quote] Got a cite for anyone going to jail for simply traveling to Cuba? > [@](#): > > I lived in the UAE and paid zero tax there (because the UAE does not levy taxes on anyone)… yet I had to pay tax in the USA each year even though I didn’t set foot in the USA for several years. This doesn’t sound very free to me. Brits, Aussies and others there did not pay tax to their home countries. I’d like a cite for that, too. > [@](#): > > In the US to get on a plane I have to remove my shoes, take off my belt, coat, remove my wallet, remove my laptop, go through a nude-o-scope or be patted down. In Dubai I don’t have to do nay of that. Just walk through the magnetometer and put by bag (fully packed) through an xray. So, your thesis is that citizens of the UAE are more free than Americans? Could be, but I’d need to see more than just airport procedures to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/35 "2011-01-16T17:58:22Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Do people in the UK think of their country as a land of hope and glory? Hope? I’m an optimist. Glory? In a modest, British way. > [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > 1. US citizens who do not live in the USA still have to pay US taxes… even if they _never_ lived in the USA. You pay your taxes so the USA can send the Sixth Fleet to save your arse if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/36 "2011-01-16T18:02:05Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > In the US to get on a plane I have to remove my shoes, take off my belt, coat, remove my wallet, remove my laptop, go through a nude-o-scope or be patted down. In Dubai I don’t have to do nay of that. Just walk through the magnetometer and put by bag (fully packed) through an xray. But you’d have to go through that in Europe. These invasive security policies are universal in the world of the free. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Do people in the UK think of their country as a land of hope and glory? I don’t know anybody who would seriously think that, though some older people might think that in a nostalgic sort of way, and jaded younger people might mention that with a strong hint of irony. The whole ‘land of the free, home of the brave’ thing, from the perspective of this Englishman, does seem like something that is actually seriously believed by some Americans. They’re the Americans that often get put on our television, so it’s probably a skewed perspective. > [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I lived in the UAE and paid zero tax there (because the UAE does not levy taxes on anyone)… yet I had to pay tax in the USA each year even though I didn’t set foot in the USA for several years. This doesn’t sound very free to me. Brits, Aussies and others there did not pay tax to their home countries.. [quote=“John\_Mace, post:34, topic:567794”] I’d like a cite for that, too.[/QUOTE Which part? I have lived and worked in several countries and never paid taxes to the British government. I thought it was common knowledge that the UAE doesn’t do income tax. Is that wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/37 "2011-01-16T18:57:50Z")
I’m not at all sure that the phrase “land of the free, home of the brave” says that the U.S. is more free or brave than anyone else. It’s a statement about the character of America, not a boast that America is better than everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/38 "2011-01-16T19:03:03Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Do people in the UK think of their country as a land of hope and glory? Only in an ironic sense. > [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I am a US citizen and if I were to simply go to Cuba for tourism and come back to the US (and write “Cuba” on the form for countries visited), I would very likely be fined and could be put in prison under the law. This is not freedom… no other developed country restricts it’s citizens like this. I know Americans can use 3rd countries to go and such, but if the US finds out you can be in trouble. Not very free in my mind. Complete rubbish. You can’t take a direct flight to Cuba, and you can’t bring Cuban goods through customs. That’s about it. [The State Department even maintains a consulate-in-all-but-name](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html) under the protection of the Swiss Embassy in Havana for the protection of US travelers in Cuba. > [@](#): > > I lived in the UAE and paid zero tax there (because the UAE does not levy taxes on anyone)… yet I had to pay tax in the USA each year even though I didn’t set foot in the USA for several years. This doesn’t sound very free to me. Brits, Aussies and others there did not pay tax to their home countries. You’ll forgive me and everyone else if we’re unsympathetic to your plight, not being able to live without income tax obligations. In any event, you don’t have to pay US taxes if you’re not living here. You can stop whenever you want, and even maintain your US citizenship. You just might be in a little bit of trouble when you come back. That’s the rub- you expect that you will want to come back one day, so you keep paying. Granted, other countries generally don’t make you pay income taxes while you aren’t living there, but the whole point is you’re _not_ here, so it’s a bit disingenuous to complain about this as an infringement on your freedom. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/39 "2011-01-16T19:13:39Z")
[QUOTE=Desert Nomad] I am a US citizen and if I were to simply go to Cuba for tourism and come back to the US (and write “Cuba” on the form for countries visited), I would very likely be fined and could be put in prison under the law. [/QUOTE] Huh? Where do you get that idea from? Certainly travel is restricted, but Americans do go to Cuba. I know people who go there in fact…they sometimes bring me back cigars (which actually is illegal, but the most any of them has ever told me they got was a slap on the wrist and the cigars confiscated. Probably the security guys smoked them while laughing their asses off). Here’s a [Wiki](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=13360860) cite about traveling too Cuba. Do you have any cites of Americans simply going there and being put in prison? > [@](#): > > I lived in the UAE and paid zero tax there (because the UAE does not levy taxes on anyone)… yet I had to pay tax in the USA each year even though I didn’t set foot in the USA for several years. This doesn’t sound very free to me. Brits, Aussies and others there did not pay tax to their home countries. Have you considered the reason the UAE doesn’t levy taxes on anyone? That said, why not renounce your US citizenship if it’s such a burden? I mean, that seems an obvious choice to me if you derive no benefit from it while having to pay taxes. ‘Free’ doesn’t mean ‘without cost’, and I’d like a cite that the Brits and Aussies ‘and others’ don’t ever have to pay taxes when they retain citizenship yet live and work in other countries. Not that it would be all that surprising, but I doubt ALL of them do…from what I’ve seen it varies wildly. > [@](#): > > In the US to get on a plane I have to remove my shoes, take off my belt, coat, remove my wallet, remove my laptop, go through a nude-o-scope or be patted down. In Dubai I don’t have to do nay of that. Just walk through the magnetometer and put by bag (fully packed) through an xray. It used to be that way here. Unfortunately, due to certain events things have changed. By and large this was due to public pressure to make sure we are all safe and snug. I agree…it’s a pain in the ass (I travel a LOT), and IMHO it’s trying to close the barn door after the cow got away. I think it’s a bit like all the other knee jerk things that come after any large tragedy, but the thing is the Government does this because the Citizens demand the ‘do something!’. So, if it’s indeed a brake on our freedom it’s one that our people have self imposed in the name of some illusive protection they think they derive. That said, the US isn’t the only country that has high levels of security at places like air ports. I’ve never been to Dubai, but several European countries have pretty strict security measures when traveling to or from places outside Europe. Israel also has pretty strict measures. And customs in some countries are a complete nightmare (much worse than coming into the US). I remember one trip trying to get into Italy…_shudder_ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/40 "2011-01-16T19:27:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > ‘Free’ doesn’t mean ‘without cost’, and I’d like a cite that the Brits and Aussies ‘and others’ don’t ever have to pay taxes when they retain citizenship yet live and work in other countries. Not that it would be all that surprising, but I doubt ALL of them do…from what I’ve seen it varies wildly. That one’s pretty much true. The US is (almost?) unique in levying income tax on its nationals’ foreign earnings while they’re living abroad. Now, if you live in the UK and earn money in the UAE, you’ll pay UK income tax on that- as you will if you live in the UAE and earn money in the UK- but taxing wholly foreign earnings is a US-only thing. It should be noted that even the US allows you to exclude the first $90,000 or so of your foreign earnings from US tax, so it’s not like some guy working as a bartender in London is paying US income tax. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794.md?page=3)