# "Land of the Free, home of the Brave" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794 "2011-01-16T03:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/41 "2011-01-16T19:42:55Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I think it’s 7 days; however to clarify, in Britain a traffic cop will only ask to see a license if he suspects some infraction, either of the vehicle or driving. I am sure that many safe middle class drivers driving nice cars up to their 80s have never once been asked to show their license. That’s true of the US too, though. Police don’t just stop you randomly and ask for your license. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/42 "2011-01-16T19:51:21Z")
Well, unless you’re black. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/43 "2011-01-16T19:54:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, unless you’re black. That’s why it’s not random. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/44 "2011-01-16T20:33:48Z")
Well, they swear they aren’t profiling. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/45 "2011-01-16T20:36:12Z")
As far as cashing a cheque goes in Britain — although cheques are becoming rare outside between businesses — the only ID needed, as for any banking transaction, is to place the bank’s issued credit/debit card in a slot. I imagine it sucks if a thief knows your pin number… Credit/debit cards are generally the only ID most people carry. It’s not as if we have our names sewn onto our clothes as we did in the brave days when we were five-year-olds and life spread before us full of hope and promise, and we could easily get lost. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/46 "2011-01-16T20:45:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I find this a bit hard to credit. You never need to produce your license? Correct. I am not required to produce my license when driving. Hard as you may find it to credit. 🙂 > [@](#): > > So…how do the police give you a traffic violation? Based solely on the license plate of the vehicle? Yes, they are able to find out your identity from your license plate. Generally one would volunteer one’s identity anyway. > [@](#): > > I find it hard to believe that, having gone to the trouble of such a complex system that it’s then not used. You have to _have_ a license. You don’t have to _produce_ it when driving. Maybe I’ll start a GQ thread on this so as not to hijack this thread. > [@](#): > > Right…but aside from a few gung ho type posters, how often do you have ‘Land of the Free, Home of the Brave’ thrown in your face here? Oh, I’m sure it’s more typical of certain types of internet users on certain types of forum. The SDMB is fairly mature (ther eare occasional exceptions) in conversation; somewhere like FARK is very different. > [@](#): > > Right…but do you feel less ‘free’ than Americans, French, Germans, etc etc? At a guess, the answer is ‘no’. Nor do your fellow citizens (again, at a guess). That’s the point. I don’t feel less free than you either, and in fact I feel more so, because the things that you might look on as hampering my freedom (say, the license thing) I look on as simply normal and I accept (for the most part) the reasoning behind them. Same for things you consider normal and accept as just part of being a UK citizen…some, to me, seem a damper on your freedom (the large scale use of CCTV in public areas, for instance). I think that’s what I said. Thanks for the sumamtion, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/47 "2011-01-16T20:48:13Z")
I started a GQ thread on the question of UK drivers licenses if you want to join that discussion (I think there were 3 replies from UK 'dopers on the subject so far). It’s something I never thought to ask any of my friends over there…and since I never got a ticket it never came up for me either. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/48 "2011-01-16T20:51:39Z")
One problem with comparing the US and other countries is that many laws in the US vary by state. In some states, you are not required to carry your license when driving, but you must be able to produce it within “x” number of days if you get pulled over for a violation. There is no “US law” regarding driving licenses. That is managed by the several states. I can buy hard alcohol at a grocery store in CA, but not in many other states. I can turn right on red in CA, but not in many other states. Just this year, possession of small amounts of pot in CA is treated like a parking ticket. I doubt if that’s the same in TX. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/49 "2011-01-16T21:24:45Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I’m curious about the above description - namely whether the average American does view themself as coming from a land that is “freer” and “braver” than other countries. Dude, it’s a patriotic song. Nobody cares if Elizabeth II is really “gracious” or “noble.” No doubt she is, but they sang the same song for George IV. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/50 "2011-01-16T21:40:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Have you considered the reason the UAE doesn’t levy taxes on anyone? That said, why not renounce your US citizenship if it’s such a burden? I mean, that seems an obvious choice to me if you derive no benefit from it while having to pay taxes. ‘Free’ doesn’t mean ‘without cost’, and I’d like a cite that the Brits and Aussies ‘and others’ don’t ever have to pay taxes when they retain citizenship yet live and work in other countries. Not that it would be all that surprising, but I doubt ALL of them do…from what I’ve seen it varies wildly. I can’t speak for other countries, but in the case of Canada, if you are a [factual resident](http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/tmprry-eng.html) of Canada then you get to pay Canadian taxes on your foreign income. If you are not deemed a factual resident, then no you don’t pay Canadian taxes. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/51 "2011-01-16T22:08:46Z")
I am a US citizen currently living in the US. But I grew up in Canada and my parents, brother, and his family still live up there. I feel significantly _less_ free in the US, primarily because the things that I value have to do with having a safety net and a work/life balance that is more along the lines of “work to live” not “live to work.” I don’t particularly value the American dream (in it’s most simplistic form) of bettering my position and making lots of money. I prefer the freedom to spend ample time with my newborn after giving birth and not having to worry about my ridiculously limited maternity leave running out. I prefer the freedom to not be tied to my employer just to have decent health insurance. I prefer the freedom to have my family protected through laws that apply to married people (including survivor benefits) – even though I’m in a same-sex relationship – and not have to spend piles of money to our lawyer (for estate planning and second-parent adoption) for rights/protections that I would get virtually for free up in Canada. Personally, I find some of the “freedoms” that Americans fuss about (such as guns) to be pretty ridiculous. > [@xoferew](#): > > The US values and nurtures independence more than some other countries, which is a kind of freedom. If I want to move a thousand miles away from my parents in pursuit of a job opportunity I have that physical and social freedom. It takes courage to strike off on my own and do that. I have the freedom to succeed or fail spectacularly on my own. Contrast that to countries that are smaller – I can’t get that far from my support network and still be within the national boundaries, or with countries that value a more cooperative way of life. Just wanted to comment on this. You can move a seriously long distance away in Canada if you want to strike out on your own and get a fresh start. So you have physical and social freedom. But you also have, IMHO, _more_ freedom to crash and burn while attempting new ventures because of certain “cooperative” aspects of Canadian society, such as the health care system, to fall back on. So… again, I don’t see how the American libertarian fetish makes a person _optimally_ free. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/52 "2011-01-16T22:14:43Z")
Well, now we’re getting into the definition of “freedom”. In the US, I’m more free because I do not have to pay for you to spend time with your kids. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/53 "2011-01-16T22:15:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’d like a cite for that, too. It is well known that Brits can, once they leave the UK for an extended period, file a form (declaring themselves non-resident) to opt out of paying taxes to the UK. They of course have to pay taxes in their new country, which in the UAE (and most other Gulf States) is zero. The same is true for Aussies, Kiwis, and (if they sell their Canadian-based assets), Canadians too. The US is the only developed country that taxes based on citizenship rather than residence (Libya does the same). No, I don’t think the UAE is more free (though on an economic level it is), but I also do not think the US is the freest place in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/54 "2011-01-16T22:19:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Only in an ironic sense. > > Complete rubbish. You can’t take a direct flight to Cuba, and you can’t bring Cuban goods through customs. That’s about it. You can’t spend money there either. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’ll forgive me and everyone else if we’re unsympathetic to your plight, not being able to live without income tax obligations. > > In any event, you don’t have to pay US taxes if you’re not living here. You can stop whenever you want, and even maintain your US citizenship. You just might be in a little bit of trouble when you come back. > > That’s the rub- you expect that you will want to come back one day, so you keep paying. Granted, other countries generally don’t make you pay income taxes while you aren’t living there, but the whole point is you’re _not_ here, so it’s a bit disingenuous to complain about this as an infringement on your freedom. Of course it impacts my freedom. How is paying taxes to a country that I don’t live in anything other than “not very free”? When I lived in Georgia (not the US state), I paid taxes to both countries… but my Brit co-workers only paid Georgian taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/55 "2011-01-16T22:22:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That one’s pretty much true. The US is (almost?) unique in levying income tax on its nationals’ foreign earnings while they’re living abroad. > > Now, if you live in the UK and earn money in the UAE, you’ll pay UK income tax on that- as you will if you live in the UAE and earn money in the UK- but taxing wholly foreign earnings is a US-only thing. > > It should be noted that even the US allows you to exclude the first $90,000 or so of your foreign earnings from US tax, so it’s not like some guy working as a bartender in London is paying US income tax. It doesn’t protect you from capital gains. If I (as a US citizen) buy a house in Germany and live there, then sell the house and buy a different one, I will have to pay capital gains tax to the USA on the German house. A UK citizen would not have to pay anything to the UK… and of course we’d both have to pay tax to Germany. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/56 "2011-01-16T22:39:35Z")
Why keep your US citizenship? Again, I guess I’m not seeing the reason…unless you plan to move back here at some point (and from what you’ve been saying, a lot of places overseas appeal more to you than moving back to the states). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/57 "2011-01-16T22:42:37Z")
With reference specifically to the UAE, it’s pretty much impossible for a non-Muslim to obtain citizenship. Legal permanent residence, sure, but **DN** could find her(?)self stateless one day. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/58 "2011-01-16T22:52:04Z")
True, though there are probably other countries that s/he could apply to for citizenship I should think. My guess is that DN doesn’t want to give up his or her (his I assume) citizenship because of the overseas advantages that derive from being a US citizen, such as the embassy protection and services. Or maybe s/he would like to move back to the US sometime. The thing is, that the taxes for overseas Americans aren’t a complete one way street. I’ve traveled a lot abroad (and even lived in a few different countries for months at a time…never years though), and if you ever get into trouble you will find that there are some distinct benefits to being a US citizen. To be sure, other countries have the same things, but in my experience the US is sort of the premier gold card for this…and membership costs. Or, maybe DN only wants to live and work in the UAE, and if you can’t obtain citizenship unless you are a Muslim then s/he is probably screwed. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/59 "2011-01-16T23:22:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why keep your US citizenship? Again, I guess I’m not seeing the reason…unless you plan to move back here at some point (and from what you’ve been saying, a lot of places overseas appeal more to you than moving back to the states). > > -XT Well for one, it is not possible to gain UAE citizenship no matter how long one lives in the country. Even marrying a local will not automatically grant citizenship. The US will not let you surrender your citizenship unless you already have another. I don’t want to give it up because I may decide to return one day (when I can get health insurance for example). But while I am not in the US, I don’t think I should have to pay tax there… just as my Brit, Kiwi, Aussie, Dutch, Norwegian and German friends do not pay tax to their home countries when they are not living there. Sorry, but it just does not make sense to me to tax based on citizenship… it makes the US seem less free to me. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/60 "2011-01-16T23:23:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > With reference specifically to the UAE, it’s pretty much impossible for a non-Muslim to obtain citizenship. Legal permanent residence, sure, but **DN** could find her(?)self stateless one day. I’m a “he” 🙂 You can’t even get permanent residence… only 3 years at a time and as of January 1, only two years at a time now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794.md?page=4)