# "Land of the Free, home of the Brave" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794 "2011-01-16T03:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/61 "2011-01-16T23:28:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > True, though there are probably other countries that s/he could apply to for citizenship I should think. My guess is that DN doesn’t want to give up his or her (his I assume) citizenship because of the overseas advantages that derive from being a US citizen, such as the embassy protection and services. The US Embassy provides few services… normal business hours are about 3-4 hours per day, you must pay even to have pages added to your passport, they will not mail your absentee ballots, and if you are evacuated (as happened in Lebanon in 2006), they will send you a bill for the evacuation. Many Americans trapped in Lebanon during the 2006 war were evacuated by the French (and did not receive bills). Have you ever needed emergency services from the US Embassy? I think the US is certainly in the top 10 best places to be a citizen and live, but the idea that the US is #1 all the time in everything is simply not true. I certainly don’t think of it as “The Land of the Free”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/62 "2011-01-16T23:30:46Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Sorry, but it just does not make sense to me to tax based on citizenship… it makes the US seem less free to me. And countries with higher taxes (which pretty mush is all of Western Europe) make them seem less free, too. Right? What about countries which use tax payer money to finance a royal family? Or a Church? You can cherry pick all you want and make any given Western country seem more free. But I really can’t see that it’s anything but a wash. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/63 "2011-01-16T23:36:44Z")
I don’t think any Western European country uses taxpayer funds to finance a royal family anymore. The UK imposed income taxes on the royals in 1992, and the Civil List is now paid from the income from the Crown Estate, so they are effectively tax-neutral, AIUI. Of course, if you consider the additional tourism generated by the royals, they’re probably quite profitable. ETA: The Church of England also no longer receives government assistance. It funds itself via donations and income from its holdings. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/64 "2011-01-16T23:59:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Dude, it’s a patriotic song. Nobody cares if Elizabeth II is really “gracious” or “noble.” No doubt she is, but they sang the same song for George IV. That’s not really an answer to the question. From your tone, I’m guessing your answer is “no, I do not believe I’m more free than other Western countries”, but I’m kinda guessing here. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/65 "2011-01-17T00:06:41Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > So the question is this: do you guys in the US feel that you genuinely are more “free” than us in, say, the UK, France, or any other Western country? > > But - the question is about _perception_, not reality. Do the US folks _perceive_ themselves as more free than the other folks on this board? Yep!! For sure. No question about it. Freer… and braver. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/66 "2011-01-17T00:08:25Z")
Well, I didn’t see that coming. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/67 "2011-01-17T00:19:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > With reference specifically to the UAE, it’s pretty much impossible for a non-Muslim to obtain citizenship. Legal permanent residence, sure, but **DN** could find her(?)self stateless one day. Isn’t **Desert Nomad** a Muslim? I think I remember him saying so once. Not that it’ll help him gain citizenship in the Emirates, as he’s said that it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/68 "2011-01-17T00:26:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And countries with higher taxes (which pretty mush is all of Western Europe) make them seem less free, too. Right? What about countries which use tax payer money to finance a royal family? Or a Church? Yes, higher taxes = less freedom (all other things being equal). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/69 "2011-01-17T00:28:00Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Yep!! For sure. No question about it. > > Freer… and braver. I guess that settles it! ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/70 "2011-01-17T00:28:24Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Isn’t **Desert Nomad** a Muslim? I think I remember him saying so once. Not that it’ll help him gain citizenship in the Emirates, as he’s said that it’s impossible. It really doesn’t make any difference as far as citizenship is concerned. A handful of non-Gulf Arabs have gained UAE citizenship, but it is very, very rare indeed and only at the grace of the royal family in exceptional circumstances. That said, if you are a dictator in need of a place to go like Idi Amin or Ben Ali (a few days ago), than the Saudis can probably help you out… of course Saudi is one of the least free places around. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/71 "2011-01-17T00:29:56Z")
Not a very rational way of thinking. The tax you’re refering to looks like standing in the way of “USA is freeest country in the world” because it seems like an unfair tax, and one difficult to justify. Not just because it is a tax, or a particularily high one. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/72 "2011-01-17T00:47:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, I didn’t see that coming. Without wishing to be ungracious or reveal secrets, it has to be said that Europeans, and I imagine many Latin Americans, consider Americans to be excessively fearful, mistrustful and worried. Not a reflection on their physical bravery since most countrys’ soldiers are, and have been, very brave to an equal extent; just what I’ve described as ‘_It’s the obverse of their faith in ideals_’. Plus they really dislike each other a lot. At the beginning of the American Civil War one young lady was asked by a foreigner why the North and South were fighting. She replied: ‘_Because we hate each other so_.’ It continues. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/73 "2011-01-17T00:51:11Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Not a very rational way of thinking. The tax you’re refering to looks like standing in the way of “USA is freeest country in the world” because it seems like an unfair tax, and one difficult to justify. > Not just because it is a tax, or a particularily high one. Exactly my thought.I am not opposed to paying taxes and getting benefits, but I think by definition, free countries have laws that make sense, protect both individuals and the society as a whole and tax justly. When the US taxes people that don’t live there (especially after many years), it strikes me as being less free. Switzerland has higher taxes than the USA, but I think it is a freer country. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/74 "2011-01-17T01:20:17Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > That’s not really an answer to the question. From your tone, I’m guessing your answer is “no, I do not believe I’m more free than other Western countries”, but I’m kinda guessing here. No, the answer is, “The lyrics of a patriotic song are useless in discerning a country’s national character or even, to any serious degree, its national self-image.” But, no, I see no reason to think America’s national character excels anything else in the West in terms of freedom or bravery. Where we excel is in **brains.** Something both Americans and foreigners are reluctant to admit. We did not win WWII or the Cold War by being tougher than our enemies, we won by being **smarter** than our enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/75 "2011-01-17T02:06:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Where we excel is in **brains.** Something both Americans and foreigners are reluctant to admit. We did not win WWII or the Cold War by being tougher than our enemies, we won by being **smarter** than our enemies. We won WWII mainly be being richer and having allies. The Soviets did a lot of dying. As for the Cold War, we didn’t win so much as the Soviets lost; their system didn’t work well and collapsed. If America had sunk into the ocean the USSR would still have collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/76 "2011-01-17T02:27:30Z")
Getting back to the original analysis, I think most Americans are raised to believe that the US is #1 in all regards and it is the freest country in the world. Usually it is taught that “other countries don’t have our freedoms”, but this is often taken as “no other countries have our freedoms”. So, yes, I do think most Americans believe they are the freest in the world… and most have never been anywhere else to disprove it. Much also depends on the definition of freedom. In the US it is often seen as “freedom to (do something)” while in many countries it is “freedom from (being affected by something)”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/77 "2011-01-17T02:37:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We won WWII mainly be being richer and having allies. The Soviets did a lot of dying. Exactly. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As for the Cold War, we didn’t win so much as the Soviets lost; their system didn’t work well and collapsed. If America had sunk into the ocean the USSR would still have collapsed. Not likely. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/78 "2011-01-17T03:40:57Z")
I guess I forgot to mention another aspect of the American libertarian fetish that I don’t particularly value: “I’ve got what’s mine; screw you.” Case in point: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, now we’re getting into the definition of “freedom”. In the US, I’m more free because I do not have to pay for you to spend time with your kids. Which has always struck me as more about selfishness than about freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/79 "2011-01-17T03:57:10Z")
Isn’t it more selfish to want the government to forcibly take money from someone else so it can be spent on you? I think wanting somebody else’s money is much more selfish than simply wanting to keep your own. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794/80 "2011-01-17T05:07:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can buy hard alcohol at a grocery store in CA, but not in many other states. I can turn right on red in CA, but not in many other states. Just this year, possession of small amounts of pot in CA is treated like a parking ticket. I doubt if that’s the same in TX. It is in some areas. Travis County treats marijuana possession pretty much the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-home-of-the-brave/567794.md?page=5)