# Land of the Free? So why do you lock up so many of your citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903 "2002-08-28T04:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/41 "2002-08-30T04:09:45Z")
The drug war is the direct cause. You will note that the US incarceration rates have quadrupled since the drug war began. See the [DOJ Incarceration Rate Graph](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/incrt.htm) and [DOJ Drug Arrests Graph](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/drug.htm). Mandatory minimum sentencing for drug offenders often “pushes” out violent felons, such as armed robbers referenced in the thread up above. It’s absolutely silly. And driven by the conservatives. And on Preview I see **Sam Stone** just made the same point. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/42 "2002-08-30T05:19:24Z")
> [@](#): > > And driven by the conservatives. Uh, not quite. It’s driven by \*_politicians_. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/43 "2002-08-30T05:23:35Z")
Dammit. I guess I was going to bold, then changed my mind and decided to italicize halfway through. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/44 "2002-08-30T10:04:07Z")
\>\> I was going to bold, then changed my mind and decided to italicize halfway through. People who do things like that belong in jail 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/45 "2002-08-30T16:02:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _ **Monster104** _ > Uh, not quite. It’s driven by _politicians_. (formatting corrected) OK, by _conservative_ politicians. Granted, they wouldn’t have been able to push it through without some broad support, but the initiatives generally, and the overall aggressiveness, were led by the conservatives. For example, the “War On Drugs” was started as a policy of Reagan’s administration (conservative). The first Drug Czar was William Bennett (conservative). The former Drug Czar was Barry McCaffrey (conservative). The current Drug Czar is John Walters (conservative). The most visibile elected politician supporting an abatement of the “War on Drugs”, particularly support for the decriminalization of marijuana, is New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson (liberal). Also quite visible is Barney Frank (D-MA) and former Baltimore Mayor Kurt Schmoke (D). Voter initiatives to reform drug policy to change from a law enforcement focus to a public health issue passed in five states recently, California, Oregon, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona (all generally liberal states). Medical marijuana use has passed in elections in nine states (all more liberal than conservative). And don’t forget Jocelyn Elders (D). Some of the most draconian drug laws were passed in New York back in the 70s, the Rockefeller laws, sponsored by Governor Nelson Rockefeller ®. Those laws were opposed by NYC Mayor John D Lindsay (D) and Police Chief Patrick Murphy (D). More recently, Governor George Pataki ® campaigned, particularly to the Latino (D) community, that he would revise the Rockefeller laws. But when he got into office, he kinda forgot about that. He was called to the carpet by State Comptroller H. Carl McCall (D). Anecdotal, I hear you say? Fine. The ONLY conservatives I can find that support reform of the “war on drugs” are libertarians and William F. Buckley. I’m sure there are others, but I can find no elected conservatives with such a position. It certainly doesn’t surprise me that **december** thinks the incarcerations rates are due to “liberal policies”. But the facts don’t support such a contention (which has never stopped him before). ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/46 "2002-08-30T16:20:24Z")
\<\\> I didn’t make that contention, AZ. Suggest you re-read my posts. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/47 "2002-08-30T16:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > **where in the U.S. can your property be seized and forfeited in response to prostitution?!** Never mind, I found it: [http://www.fear.org/980401.html](http://www.fear.org/980401.html) “A well-publicized Oakland ordinance letting police seize the cars of suspected drug buyers **and prostitution customers** has been found invalid by the Legislature’s legal adviser and should be repealed, the American Civil Liberties Union said Tuesday [31-March-1998].” (emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/48 "2002-08-30T16:45:53Z")
In what Bizarro universe is Utah a generally liberal state? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/49 "2002-08-30T16:52:04Z")
[New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson](http://www.spintechmag.com/9909/tw0999.htm) is a **libertarian minded Republican** not a liberal. There is a **big** difference, on bureaucratic and fiscal issues anyway. > [@](#): > > Florida tops the list. It seems reasonable to mention that a certain election dispute also occurred in Florida in the recent past. It also seems reasonable to mention that the rate is bunched closely with a number of other states. Moreover, if you know anything about crime, criminals - like everybody else - move to Florida in droves. If I had (amount of money) for every time I heard criminal XYZ committed a string of (crime type) in (northern state) and was last seen in Florida I would have (a large amount of money). Why? I can only guess: the weather, no state income tax, lots of international airports, lots of coastline. Believe it or not, we do not encourage felons to come here, they just do. Didja ever see Scarface starring Al Pacino? Pretend it is a documentary. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/50 "2002-08-30T17:18:08Z")
**december** , I think it would be fair to say you put forth such a thesis, but upon rereading, I agree that you may have done so “tongue in cheek”, and you certainly didn’t attempt to support it. I apologize for the characterization. **Gaderene** Sorry, obviously missed that, point conceded. **Beagle** , I would swear that I checked that, and saw a democratic affiliation, but now I cannot find whatever I thought I saw. Gary Johnson is a Republican. Point conceded. Yet I stand behind my assertion that the higher incarceration rates are directly attributable to the “War on Drugs”, and that war has been led by politicians generally considered conservative. And while I have conceded a few points I used to back this up, I note that no one has really argued otherwise. And **tracer** , although you may have satisified your own query, I know there is a SCOTUS decision that supports the forteiture laws. I’ll try to dig it up, if you are really interested. I remember that it goes back to early laws regarding pirate ships. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/51 "2002-08-30T17:42:15Z")
In Washington DC and other states johns arrested for prostitution _can_ have their cars forfeited. Yes, we have discussed forfeiture laws before. They _are_ legal but IMHO they are an abomination in a country that prides itself in giving everyone due process because the fact is forfeiture is, in fact, a punishment without due process. At any rate this is a side issue to why the US has such a high prison population. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/52 "2002-08-30T18:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > For the sake of argument, let’s say that the Globe and Mail is a tabloid that will give you botulism if you wrap your fish and chips in it… Minor nitpick: the Globe and Mail is one of the four big English-language dailies out of Toronto. It’s a respected small-c conservative publication, noted for its business and international news coverage. It’s rather like a cross between the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/53 "2002-08-30T22:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Yet I stand behind my assertion that the higher incarceration rates are directly attributable to the “War on Drugs”, and that war has been led by politicians generally considered conservative. And while I have conceded a few points I used to back this up, I note that no one has really argued otherwise. Point conceded, er, never argued. Just remember that libertarians are there right behind you 50% of the steps of the way. It’s tough being a liberal conservative, or vice versa. DON’T DO IT!!! But if you did a search you would discover that I am no big supporter of the war on drugs. Although, it does provide steady work for a lot of attorneys, cops, reporters, and the prison industry. Not to mention all the toys the seizures provide for law enforcement. Sure, we could treat drugs as a health problem and make society much safer. But, where’s the fun in that? No shootouts, car chases, turf battles. If there is one thing we learned from prohibition of addictive substances (alcohol), it is certainly that it works. :heavy sarcasm smilie: ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/54 "2002-09-01T09:27:22Z")
A big misconception about these downright evil drug laws is that most people in jail/prison are dealers. Well, see that depends on how you define dealing. Most people with a grain of common sense would define it as actually selling drugs to another person. Unfortunately, that’s not how most (all?) states look at it. If you have _x_ amount of marijuana, you are a dealer. Period. End of discussion. Now if _x_ = 1000 lbs., it would be difficult to argue that you plan to smoke a half ton of weed yourself. In most states, however, _x_ = about one ounce of pot. **AN OUNCE!** For those who have never bought marijuana, an ounce will run you anywhere from $60 to $400 depending on your region and the quality of the pot. The laws make no distinction on quality or price, though. Only the amount is relevant. So how much is an ounce really? Well, I’ve smoked enough in my day to tell you that a heavy pot smoker could easily finish an ounce in two days. Yes, you heard right. A two-day supply of pot qualifies you as a dealer. Is that not the most absurd bit of logic you ever heard? If I have three cases of beer in my fridge, does that make me a liquor store? I used to smoke cigarettes that I rolled myself. A pouch of tobacco weighed two ounces, enough for forty cigarettes. Damn, two ounces! That must make me a freakin’ tobacco wholesaler! Under normal circumstances, a judge could reasonably decide that a week’s worth of pot is no cause to label someone as a dealer, lock them up, and throw away the key. Unfortunately, however, many states have these wonderful mandatory minimum laws that effectively tie the judges’ hands. Pot laws vary **widely** from state to state and often have no discernable basis in reality. Take the bizarre state of [Alabama](http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4521), for example. If you’re found in possession of less than a kilogram (2.2 lbs) of pot, you could get off scott free, or spend a year at the most in jail. A very broad “over 2.2 pounds” will net you 1-10 years. But what if you decide that you don’t want to associate with drug dealers and decide to grow a couple of plants yourself? Cultivation, any amount, 3 years MANDATORY minimum sentence, with a possible sentence of 10-99 years. Also, you’d better not be greedy enough to grow 1,000 lbs. of marijuana in Alabama, because that’s a **mandatory minimum life sentence.** Yes, you heard right. Life. Oh, but it gets worse. You can get the _death penalty_ for pot [under federal law!](http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4575) You don’t have to kill anyone or commit any dastardly acts of treason against the country. Just sell enough pot and they can legally stick a needle in your arm. Chilling… > [@](#): > > The sentence of death can be carried out on a defendant who has been found guilty of manufacturing, importing or distributing a controlled substance if the act was committed as part of a continuing criminal enterprise – but only if the defendant is (1) the principal administrator, organizer, or leader of the enterprise or is one of several such principal administrators, organizers, or leaders, and (2) the quantity of the controlled substance is 60,000 kilograms or more of a mixture or substance containing a detectable amount of marijuana, or 60,000 or more marijuana plants, or the if the enterprise received more than $20 million in gross receipts during any 12-month period of its existence. As someone who has researched this subject extensively, believe me when I say that the War on (some) Drugs is the the single largest easily fixable problem in this country, hands down. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/55 "2002-09-01T20:09:01Z")
Man, if you’re smoking an ounce of pot in two days, either it’s ditch-weed or you’re flying higher than a kite 24/7. Most casual users smoke more like a joint or two in a day, so an ounce is probably more like a 2-month supply. But the point is well taken. I’ve never purchased pot, but I’ll bet it’s a fairly ‘scary’ thing for your average good citizen to do. So they might be likely to buy enough to last them for 6 months at a time. That doesn’t mean they are dealers. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/56 "2002-09-01T22:42:06Z")
> [@](#): > > And tracer, although you may have satisified your own query, I know there is a SCOTUS decision that supports the forteiture laws. I’ll try to dig it up, if you are really interested. I remember that it goes back to early laws regarding pirate ships. If there was a Supreme Court decision that allowed the forfeiture of cars of patrons of prostitutes, it would be pretty common knowledge around the US. The local police departments would be awash in autos. They aren’t. There isn’t. Don’t waste you time. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/57 "2002-09-01T23:04:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Man, if you’re smoking an ounce of pot in two days, either it’s ditch-weed or you’re flying higher than a kite 24/7. I said “heavy smokers.” And, yes, it is ditch weed. This is Louisiana and virtually all of our pot is nasty Mexican crap. Personally, it takes me three or four days to finish an ounce on my own. I am a heavy smoker, but I only smoke out of pipes, which helps conserve the weed. If I rolled big blunts or joints all day, I could easily finish an ounce in two days. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/58 "2002-09-01T23:12:47Z")
\>\> If there was a Supreme Court decision that allowed the forfeiture of cars of patrons of prostitutes, it would be pretty common knowledge around the US It _is_ common knowledge, at least in DC and other places. A search will yield plenty of examples [http://www.aclunc.org/aclunews/news599/forfeiture.html](http://www.aclunc.org/aclunews/news599/forfeiture.html) Vehicles and other property can be forfeited if used in the commission of many crimes, not just drugs or prostitution. For example, gambling [http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/148424.htm](http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/148424.htm) Legislatures can enact forfeiture laws for any serious offense. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/59 "2002-09-01T23:23:11Z")
Obviously, I’ve been living in a small world. I missed it. Fortunately, it seems to be a law that is only enforced in a few places, DC being one of them. Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable. Drugs I can kinda understand, but _prostitution_? {{{ Shudder.}}} ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903/60 "2002-09-01T23:36:51Z")
Here in MI, trying to pick up a lady of the night can get your car impounded (in Detroit, at least. Possibly in Pontiac and Flint.) Also, DUI, MIP, and a few other offences qualify for ‘instant impound’ in Detroit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free-so-why-do-you-lock-up-so-many-of-your-citizens/125903.md?page=4)