# Land of the Free? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566 "2002-12-13T18:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/1 "2002-12-13T18:44:48Z")
If the USA was a corporation, would it’s Land of the Free tagline stand up to any kind of Trade Description legislation bearing in mind its people are not allowed to visit Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/2 "2002-12-13T19:00:05Z")
As Einstein said, everything is relative, inclusing freedom. I would say that compared to China yes, the USA is the land of the free. That may change in the coming decades though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/3 "2002-12-13T19:23:54Z")
Would you care to provide a cite for the claim that Americans are not allowed to visit Cuba? Perhaps you meant to say that Americans are not allowed to spend money in Cuba. It’s a small distinction, but relevant. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/4 "2002-12-13T21:08:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > Would you care to provide a cite for the claim that Americans are not allowed to visit Cuba? > > Perhaps you meant to say that Americans are not allowed to spend money in Cuba. It’s a small distinction, but relevant. > \*\* Everything anyone ever needs to know about traveling to Cuba: [http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html](http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html) So Bricker is basically correct. “Land of the Free” does not mean “Land Where You Can do Whatever the Hell You Like”. That said…other than not being able to spend money in Cuba or commit a number crimes like rape, murder and theft, or enter the country without permission how do you feel America as “Land of the Free” is misleading? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/5 "2002-12-13T21:23:56Z")
Freedom is the absence of coercion. (How can people be free if they are coerced?) There are too many government coercions to list. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/6 "2002-12-14T02:41:03Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* \*\*Everything anyone ever needs to know about traveling to Cuba: [http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html](http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html) What I see here is tantamount to a travel ban by the general population. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/7 "2002-12-14T03:01:35Z")
When compared to the rest of the world, on average, “Land of the free” is probably reasonable. However, Americans are fooling themselves if they think the country is the epitomy of freedom. There are many, many restrictions on freedom. Some examples: - visiting Cuba, as mentioned - allowing random stops by police checking licences, insurance, registration, seat belts or alcohol levels, despite these stops being clearly against the 4th amendment - my county even mandates the maximum length the grass on your lawn can be - seat belt and crash helmet laws in most states (an example of freedoms being eroded) - Bush/Ashcroft riding roughshod over the constitution in the name of security - restrictions on buying goods from out-of-favor countries e.g. Iran - although not mandated by law, the constant demands to show ID or to present a social security number are oppressive (The Prisoner: I am not a number). And as if there weren’t enough government-imposed regulations, large numbers of Americans gang together in groups called “Homeowners’ Associations” to further subjugate everyone to the approved way of living. ---
**Author:** ![RobertTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RobertTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobertTB)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/8 "2002-12-14T05:33:36Z")
In an absolute sense, Afghanistan is probably one of the ‘most free’ nations in the world, but that doesn’t mean people are flocking there. Most people accept a reasonable restriction on freedom as neccesary to live in a peacefull and prosperous society. Not that I am saying that all of our restrictions are ‘reasonable’. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/9 "2002-12-14T12:25:47Z")
Hong Kong comes closer than the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/10 "2002-12-14T14:15:29Z")
Historically, many native indian tribes were much freer, they were nearly Libertarian both governmentally and socially, and gave many more individual liberties and accepted varied individual lifestyles, free election of leaders, no income tax, etc, than the United States government as set up in 1789. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/11 "2002-12-14T15:10:39Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Rider \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Everything anyone ever needs to know about traveling to Cuba: > [http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html](http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html) > > What I see here is tantamount to a travel ban by the general population. \*\* Good. Then please provide the specific law or regulation under which I would be charged if I traveled to Cuba next Friday, stayed with my cousin, and then left. Thanks! - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/12 "2002-12-14T15:21:33Z")
If you spent even one cent, or, say, paid your own departure tax at the airport, you could be charged under the Trading With the Enemy Act. And you would at least be very likely subject to considerable harrasment on your return home. This doesn’t spell f.r.e.e.d.o.m to me. Check it out [http://www.sangfroid.com/cuba/go.html](http://www.sangfroid.com/cuba/go.html) ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/13 "2002-12-14T16:27:56Z")
If you want to go to Cuba, take a flight to Mexico or Brazil and get on a flight to Cuba from there. Seems like if there is _really_ that much harassment going on, this would circumvent it. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/14 "2002-12-14T17:29:04Z")
Er, Rick? To travel directly to Cuba from America, you do have to go under the auspices of a group that has a license from the U.S. Treasury Department. You can’t just hop a plane in Miami for Havana to visit your cousin. [http://www.destinationcuba.com/](http://www.destinationcuba.com/) > [@](#): > > Tico Travel is an authorized Travel Service Provider (TSP) by the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) of the United States Department of the Treasury (license C-46986). We provide expert advice and assistance with hotel, flight and rent-a-car reservations for licensed U.S. travelers. > > Under current regulations travel to Cuba is severely restricted. United States citizens and any person in the United States is subject to these restrictions, regardless of citizenship. Under these restrictions, spending money relating to Cuban travel is prohibited unless the traveler is licensed. > > Tico Travel requires that all passengers comply with all U.S. government regulations. To see if you or your organization qualifies for a general license (which does not require prior government authorization) or a specific license (which does require prior government authorization) please consult the following websites: > > See detailed information about Who Can Visit The Republic of Cuba by the U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council, Inc. …which is here… [http://www.destinationcuba.com/whocanvisit.htm](http://www.destinationcuba.com/whocanvisit.htm) > [@](#): > > U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council, Inc. > 30 Rockefeller Plaza New York, New York 10112-0002 > Telephone (212) 246-1444 Facsimile (212) 246-2345 > Internet: [http://www.cubatrade.org](http://www.cubatrade.org) > > VISITING THE REPUBLIC OF CUBA > AND > TRANSACTIONS WITH THE REPUBLIC OF CUBA > > The following information is provided as a general overview of the regulations administered by the United States Department of the Treasury and the United States Department of Commerce. For specific information, including legal opinion, requests should be made directly to the appropriate representative of the United States government. Relevant information is contained within the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR)- 31 CFR Part 515. > > Who is an Individual Subject To United States Law? > > An individual subject to United States law includes: 1) Any individual, wherever located, who is a citizen or resident of the United States 2) Any person who is within the United States [a non-United States citizen in transit at an airport, for example] 3) Any corporation organized under the laws of the United States or of any State, territory possession, or district of the United States 4) Any corporation, partnership, or association, wherever organized or doing business, that is owned or controlled by persons specified in 1 and 3. Non-United States citizens who have visas are considered to be subject to United States law… Followed by a great deal of dense bureaucratic prose, plus charts and tables and things. If you wanna wade through all that and find a loophole that allows you to hop a plane to visit your cousin, feel free. Just Copy and Pasting it gave me a headache. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/15 "2002-12-14T18:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarone \* > **- visiting Cuba, as mentioned** I’m not sure this would be high on many lists, but if you think it is important you have probably been writing your congressman, right? > [@](#): > > **allowing random stops by police checking licences, insurance, registration, seat belts or alcohol levels, despite these stops being clearly against the 4th amendment** This bothers me too. I believe the problem is that the police are betting you won’t take it to the Supreme Court. We should write our congressmen. > [@](#): > > **my county even mandates the maximum length the grass on your lawn can be** I’d have been in trouble a couple of times this summer, under your laws. But that’s the point, the voters in your area have the right (freedom) to vote in such laws. You’re a voter, change the law. > [@](#): > > **seat belt and crash helmet laws in most states** Well in most states the voters must feel that they don’t want to have their taxes and/or insurance rates raised to pay for the medical expenses of people not wearing seat belts or helmets. Again, work to change law or move to Montana. > [@](#): > > **Bush/Ashcroft riding roughshod over the constitution in the name of security** This primarily applies to alien’s rights and I personally do not think that the Constitution was meant to give the same rights to aliens as to citizens. They want to do away to “what” rights we have and in turn use them as a means of doing so. Screw that! > [@](#): > > **restrictions on buying goods from out-of-favor countries e.g. Iran** This falls under the visit Cuba above. Except I would like to add that I used to think I was missing something in not being able to buy Cuban cigars. Then I visited Mexico and found out they aren’t all that good (plus they’re expensive even in Mexico). > [@](#): > > **although not mandated by law, the constant demands to show ID or to present a social security number are oppressive (The Prisoner: I am not a number).** There you go, this is not mandated by law. It is because with computers and a number information can be found out. You can refuse to give your number out, but you won’t get the services you are accustomed to when using the numbers. > [@](#): > > \*\*large numbers of Americans gang together in groups called “Homeowners’ Associations” to further subjugate everyone to the approved way of living. \*\* Do you want to take away this right? How do you feel about the Augusta National excluding women? Do they have the right to do that or should an individual woman have the right to join? You are right, laws are a pain in the ass, but not having them would bring on bigger pains in the ass. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Susanann_ > **Historically, many native indian tribes were much freer, they were nearly Libertarian both governmentally and socially, and gave many more individual liberties and accepted varied individual lifestyles, free election of leaders, no income tax, etc, than the United States government as set up in 1789.** There just is no way that you can compare a tribal society with a government such as the one established in 1789. None of us would really want to live in a tent and have to carry everything from point to point (no you can’t have a horse), but that doesn’t mean that their way was worse. If you say that Native American culture should be the model, then communism would be more logical than capitalism. That is the kind of thing you come up with when comparing apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/16 "2002-12-14T18:17:05Z")
DDG: The link you provided makes clear that one exception is: > [@](#): > > Individuals subject to United States law traveling on a “fully hosted” basis. “Fully hosted” travel requires that the individual subject to United States law who is traveling to the Republic of Cuba does not spend any funds of their own while within the Republic of Cuba. Funds used to make payments for hotels, meals, ground transportation, sundries, etc., must originate from a) an entity within the Republic of Cuba b) an entity within another country or c) an individual within another country. As I said initially, the prohibition is not exactly on travelling to Cuba, but on spending money on the trip. I grant it’s a small distinction, as I also did above, but the fact remains that as long as my cousin lets me stay at his place and covers all my expenses, the trip is legal. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/17 "2002-12-14T18:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarone \* > \*\*- visiting Cuba, as mentioned > > - allowing random stops by police checking licences, insurance, registration, seat belts or alcohol levels, despite these stops being clearly against the 4th amendment\*\* It has already been established that the ban is on spending money, not visiting. It is not permissible for the police to make “random stops” to check licenses, insurance, registration, seat belts, or alcohol levels. This is a lie. Also, untrue. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/18 "2002-12-14T18:36:37Z")
Cool loophole, Rick! I didn’t know that. So, why is this information not more widely disseminated? If you look up Cuban travel on the Internet, all you get is the official “you gotta have a license from the Feds”–nobody mentions that if you can get your trip underwritten by somebody at the other end, you can go. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/19 "2002-12-14T22:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > **I’d have been in trouble a couple of times this summer, under your laws. But that’s the point, the voters in your area have the right (freedom) to vote in such laws. You’re a voter, change the law.** Actually, I’m not. But it is a terrible argument anyway - “it must be OK because the voters vote in people that set these laws”. I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \*\*\* > Well in most states the voters must feel that they don’t want to have their taxes and/or insurance rates raised to pay for the medical expenses of people not wearing seat belts or helmets. \*\* So what? It is still a limitation of freedom. You seem to be saying that it is OK to limit freedoms if the majority (i.e. the voters) don’t want those freedoms. That’s oppression of the minority by the majority. Rights are defined in the constitution to protect individuals from such oppression. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by kniz \*\*\* > This primarily applies to alien’s rights and I personally do not think that the Constitution was meant to give the same rights to aliens as to citizens. They want to do away to “what” rights we have and in turn use them as a means of doing so. Screw that!_\* It applies to citizens also, for example, increasing the rights of the government to snoop into citizens’ private lives. Add in what Poindexter wants, and you can see it affects us all. And Ashcroft believes he has the right to declare a citizen to be an enemy combatant and therefore not qualify for protection under the constitution. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by kniz \*\*\* (about Homeowners’ Associations). > Do you want to take away this right? How do you feel about the Augusta National excluding women? Do they have the right to do that or should an individual woman have the right to join?_\* No, I do not want to take away the right to form Homeowners’ Associations. People are free to choose whether to live in such communities or not. My point is that the high prevelance of these associations (often mandating myriads of petty rules) makes the United States feel less free - the citizens like to have lots of rules and will impose them themselves where government doesn’t. AN has the right to exclude women. It is a private club. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by kniz \*\*\* > You are right, laws are a pain in the ass, but not having them would bring on bigger pains in the ass._\* I am not advocating anarchy - just a large reduction in government restricting individual freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/20 "2002-12-15T00:07:04Z")
Yeah, but see what’s happening, Amarone? I exercize my freedom, but it diminishes your freedom. You exercise your freedom, but it diminishes my freedom. I have the freedom to exclude you from my club, but if I do, you lose the freedom to join my club. Or you are guaranteed the right to join my club, but then I lose the freedom to chose who I want for my club. There is no such thing as absolute freedom in a society with more than one member. Even hunter-gatherer societies are bound by customs so entrenched that they aren’t even recognized as custom, but instead seem to be laws of nature. Perhaps you could point to a modern industrial society that has a better record of freedom than the USA. I imagine your pick will be at odds with what other people might pick. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566.md?page=2)