# Land of the Free? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566 "2002-12-13T18:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/41 "2002-12-17T17:10:31Z")
Rider, you use the word freedom as if it were a one dimensional, binary absolute and that is not true on any part of the planet I am aware of. You give the example of the embargo on Cuba as if it negates the rest of the freedoms you have as a US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/42 "2002-12-17T17:20:11Z")
I think that the “Land of the Free” tagline is the one that insinuates an absolute. And as to your latter point, I simply disagree. I originally pondered whether or not it detracted from said tagline. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/43 "2002-12-17T18:01:26Z")
As has been said, the USA has a much higher percentage of their population in prison. In that narrow sense the US is less free. OTOH, in Europe many things are more regulated. Say you want to buy a loaf of bread in Europe. You will have to do it within the hours during which stores are allowed to be open. But God forbif you would want to buy a loaf of bread on a Sunday. Doing that would be a crime. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/44 "2002-12-18T00:11:40Z")
**sailor:** You’re saying that all European countries forbid their citizens from buying bread on Sunday? Even Andorra? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/45 "2002-12-18T00:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*OTOH, in Europe many things are more regulated. Say you want to buy a loaf of bread in Europe. You will have to do it within the hours during which stores are allowed to be open. But God forbid you would want to buy a loaf of bread on a Sunday. Doing that would be a crime. \*\* Cite for the UK please? Have you ever been there? If so, you probably had many unnecessarily breadless Sundays. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/46 "2002-12-18T00:23:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rider \* > \*\*"Rider, could you kindly provide a definition of “freedom,” so that we may actually discuss this issue? > > So far, all we’ve got is examples where Americans may not be allowed to do everything they may wish to do, plus the 50 year old example of McCarthyism, the 40 year old example of the Civil Rights movement, and the 30 year old example of conscription." > > If you want a definition of freedom, just look in your dictionary to save me typing it out here please, and save the schoolmarm approach. Thanks. Typical. You cannot answer the question, and therefore you insult the questioner. Well, I took your advice, and I looked in the dictionary. The dictionary stated thus: > [@](#): > > 63 entries found for free. The first 10 are listed below. So, what definition of “free” are you using, and **is it a quantitative or qualitative measure**? Next, if it is qualitative, how are you comparing between countries? If you want to have a debate, explain your terms, please, and save the blithering idiot approach. Thanks, Sua ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/47 "2002-12-18T00:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > You seem to be saying that it is OK to limit freedoms if the majority (i.e. the voters) don’t want those freedoms. That’s oppression of the minority by the majority. Rights are defined in the constitution to protect individuals from such oppression. We we have here is a wonderful argument for federalism, which this nation has all but abandoned. With a more federalist approach to our laws, you could pick and choose where you wanted to live based on the local laws. Want some free health care? Go live in the state that has higher taxes, and public health care. Hate the idea of Welfare? Go live in the state with really low taxes and few public services or safety nets. You may have Libertarian as a next-door neighbor. Gay, and want to marry? Move to the state where gay marriages are allowed. Federalism offers the best of all worlds, rather than the homogeneous mess - guaranteed to piss off almost everyone to some extent - that we currently have. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/48 "2002-12-18T03:25:28Z")
SS\> Everyone else in this particular thread seems aware of the context in which “freedom” is being used here. It’s only you who seems hazy on the issue. So I’ll just stick to the debate like everyone else. And what is a “blithering idiot” approach? Or does it just make you feel better using terms like that? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/49 "2002-12-18T07:16:00Z")
Rider, you’re wrong. I gave examples where someone could consider a random European country more free than the US, but followed up with examples where they are less free. You aren’t able to answer Sua’s question, because ultimately asking the question “Is American really the Land of the Free?” will come down to semantic quibbling. What do you mean, Free? Where’s my free beer? Oh, you meant another kind of free. Like how we all get to own guns? Oh, wait, we’re less free because we can own guns, because then people can shoot at us. Or how about how we’re free to sell Nazi memorabilia on the internet? But since the Nazi’s tried to kill freedom, maybe we shouldn’t allow Nazi items and/or viewpoints to be shown in public. Anyway, this thread is really one of two things (OK, it can be both): 1. A pseudo-intellectual mutual masturbation semantic pissing contest. 2. A pseudo-intellectual America-bashing contest. Either way, I’m not interested anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/50 "2002-12-18T07:21:27Z")
So “Land of the Free” is an empty and meaningless phrase, is what your saying…and I would have to agree. This is partially why I posted the OP… It’s taken so seriously in the USA, but it really means nothng, and is an invalid claim. ---
**Author:** ![RobertTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RobertTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobertTB)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/51 "2002-12-18T07:51:59Z")
Look at the history of phrase ‘The Land of the Free’. America, when founded, was among the first modern democracies in the world. Much (all?) of Europe had a inbred monarch of some sort at the helm. America alone, in theory, had a truely ‘free’ citizenry. Now, of course, most of Europe has democratic rule, and hence, a ‘free’ citizenry, so America is no longer ‘THE Land of the Free’, but ‘A Land of the Free’. Since the question ‘Who is the most free?’ has been raised, I say America. But like **Lemur866** said, that is subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/52 "2002-12-18T07:58:07Z")
I mean, how much more free could this be? And the answer is: None. None more free. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/53 "2002-12-18T10:07:28Z")
But does that freedom go up to eleven? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/54 "2002-12-18T10:32:57Z")
> [@](#): > > OTOH, in Europe many things are more regulated. Say you want to buy a loaf of bread in Europe. You will have to do it within the hours during which stores are allowed to be open. But God forbif you would want to buy a loaf of bread on a Sunday. Doing that would be a crime. Huh? All my local shops open on a Sunday. There are a good few around me that open 24hrs 365 days a year. Shops only close when they decide to. I’ve never had any problem buying bread anytime in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/55 "2002-12-18T11:18:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarone \* > \*\*Cite for the UK please? Have you ever been there? If so, you probably had many unnecessarily breadless Sundays. \*\* Come on. We all know how regulated drinking hours are. Not to mention the BBC tax. Not to pick on any one European country or on any one aspect but in general European governments intervene in your life and in daily affairs _much_ more that US governments. Thank goodness it’s getting better but European governments are much more interventionist. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/56 "2002-12-18T11:54:59Z")
The “BBC tax” or tv liecence fee is grand for the UK as they get IMO the finest tv/radio/news service in the world from it and ad. free to boot, there web presence is very impressive aswell. Well worth the cost IMO and you only pay it if you’ve got a tv. We get RTE which is mostly shite and it also has advertising. Not as intrusive as US ad breaks but they’re still there. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/57 "2002-12-18T11:56:14Z")
But we do get the BBC aswell for a very resonable charge 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/58 "2002-12-18T12:04:48Z")
The point is not whether the BBC tax is a good thing or a bad thing. The point is not whether government regulation is good or bad. The point is that in many aspects thee is more of it in Europe. That is the point. And my point is that where there is more government regulation and intervention there is less freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/59 "2002-12-18T12:12:35Z")
So the American Constitution is an inhibitor of freedom? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566/60 "2002-12-18T13:45:59Z")
Fair enough **sailor** Personally those kind of things really don’t matter jot to me when I think about freedom. I feel free enough to be happy about it. I don’t any form of jackboot oppression on my back whatsoever. Yeah I may pay different types of tax and my right to call someone a nigger isn’t protected by my constitution but as to how I run my life IMO I’m free. YMMV 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/142566.md?page=4)