# Land Of The Free? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203 "2007-05-23T11:14:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tibidabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Tibidabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibidabo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/1 "2007-05-23T11:14:49Z")
I know this doesn’t apply to all Americans, but can we acknowledge that there exists a certain obsession, among some, with the word ‘freedom’ in the states? And perhaps a vague idea that US citizens are somehow, a little _more_ free than the rest of us? I really, really don’t see how. But if anyone is of that particular persuasion, I’d be very interested to hear what you have to say. Anyway, my gripes: “On a per capita basis, according to the best available figures, the United States has three times more prisoners than Iran, four times more than Poland, five times more than Tanzania and seven times more than Germany. Maryland has more citizens in prison and jail (an estimated 35,200) than all of Canada (31,600), though Canada’s population is six times greater.” [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0601-01.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0601-01.htm) “Assuming recent incarceration rates remain unchanged, an estimated 1 of every 20 Americans (5%) can be expected to serve time in prison during their lifetime. For African-American men, the number is greater than 1 in 4 (28.5%).” Source: Bonczar, T.P. & Beck, Allen J., US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Lifetime Likelihood of Going to State or Federal Prison (Washington DC: US Department of Justice, March 1997), p. 1. Moving on… \*\*I \*\* can cross the road annnnywhere I want to 😃 “A distinguished British historian claims he was knocked to the ground by an American policeman before being arrested and spending eight hours in jail — because he crossed the road in the wrong place.” [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/01/11/nhistorian11.xml](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/01/11/nhistorian11.xml) And I can go to Cuba, if I feel like it. I could legally drink from the age of 18. 🙂 I won’t go into the PATRIOT act or anything like that. Others feel free to do so though. Also, I know that Freedom of Speech is guaranteed by the constitution etc. Same in most democracies. But is there not a kind of social hysteria surrounding ‘patriotism’… fear of appearing ‘Anti/Un -American’? Actually, to hijack my own thread; What’s that all about? Why are some Americans so fanatically proud to have been born in the country they happened to be born in? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/2 "2007-05-23T11:23:50Z")
Crikey, good luck with this one. I think the term ‘land of the free’ isn’t supposed to mean _by comparison to some other places, where they are less free’_, it’s meant to refer to the foundation of law and government - conceptual rights and freedoms that are _defined_ in the constitution etc. It’s easy to argue that any particular implementation of government is doing a shit job of actualising those conceptual rights and freedoms, but they still exist (in fact if the government _is_ doing a shit job of upholding them, I’d actually expect to hear more people shouting “hey, this is supposed to be the land of the free”). ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/3 "2007-05-23T11:26:51Z")
OT, but the “distinguished British historian” in that Telegraph story is an absolute hoot. He’s a real-life Niles Crane: - He did not realise that the man shouting at him was a policeman because he was wearing “a rather louche bomber jacket” - “This young man kicked my legs from under me, wrenched me round in what I think is a sort of a judo move… I’m a mass of contusions and grazes” - “I still find it incredible that an ageing, mild-mannered professor of impeccable antecedent, should be the subject of such abominable treatment” - He describes the police van as “a filthy, foetid paddy wagon” - “It was actually a fantastic experience going into that detention centre and spending time with those miserable wretches of the earth” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/4 "2007-05-23T11:33:11Z")
[QUOTE=Quoth the Raven] And perhaps a vague idea that US citizens are somehow, a little _more_ free than the rest of us? [/QUOTE] This is one that I have noticed on the SDMB. It has little to do with prison populations or isolated incidents of people assaulted by policemen because of jaywalking (incidents like that one happen absolutely everywhere), though. But there does seem to be a general idea that freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and so forth are somehow more present in the US than in other Western democracies. I would very much like to see proponents of this view explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/5 "2007-05-23T11:44:04Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] But there does seem to be a general idea that freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and so forth are somehow more present in the US than in other Western democracies. [/QUOTE] I think the fact that those concepts are all written down in one place goes some way to explaining the notion. ---
**Author:** ![zhongguorenmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/bcef8e/32.png) [@zhongguorenmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zhongguorenmin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/6 "2007-05-23T11:52:10Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I think the fact that those concepts are all written down in one place goes some way to explaining the notion. [/QUOTE] ECHR? zhongguorenmin ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/7 "2007-05-23T11:52:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I think the fact that those concepts are all written down in one place goes some way to explaining the notion. [/QUOTE] Here in Sweden, they’re all written down in one place too. I imagine that’s the case in many countries. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/8 "2007-05-23T11:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Here in Sweden, they’re all written down in one place too. I imagine that’s the case in many countries. [/QUOTE] But not in Britain - of which America is a former colony - so I think there exists a contrast between _‘the way things used to imposed’_ and _‘the way we decided to redo them for ourselves’_. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/9 "2007-05-23T11:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] But not in Britain - of which America is a former colony - so I think there exists a contrast between _‘the way things used to imposed’_ and _‘the way we decided to redo them for ourselves’_. [/QUOTE] But I think you’d have a hard time arguing that the US is somehow more ‘free’ than somewhere like Britain. Wouldn’t you? We may not have it all written on one itty bitty bit of paper, but it’s still there. ---
**Author:** ![zhongguorenmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/bcef8e/32.png) [@zhongguorenmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zhongguorenmin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/10 "2007-05-23T12:00:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] But not in Britain - of which America is a former colony - so I think there exists a contrast between _‘the way things used to imposed’_ and _‘the way we decided to redo them for ourselves’_. [/QUOTE] I repeat - ECHR. You don’t know as much about other countries as you think you do. ECHR=European Convention on Human Rights Relatedly, the UK also has the Human Rights Act Both of these arguably codify a set of basic rights much more extensive than those in the US constitution. zhongguorenmin ---
**Author:** ![Tibidabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Tibidabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibidabo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/11 "2007-05-23T12:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Crikey, good luck with this one. [/QUOTE] 😃 heh, I know… It’s a slow day at work… I get that the phrase ‘Land of the Free’ doesn’t need to imply that it’s more free than anywhere else. It’s just that some people **do** go on like that… I dunno, I’m curious to see if there are people who feel that way and if so what their angle is, or whether nobody will own up to it and a.) its all in my head or b.) it’s an sub-conscious thing some people just do without knowing why exactly… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/12 "2007-05-23T12:08:31Z")
[QUOTE=zhongguorenmin] I repeat - ECHR. You don’t know as much about other countries as you think you do. [/QUOTE] Which ‘other countries’ are you talking about? Just out of interest, what nationality have you assumed me to be? The European Court Of Human Rights is a comparative newcomer on the scene, at least when we’re talking about prevailing popular notions (which we are here). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/13 "2007-05-23T12:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=SanVito] But I think you’d have a hard time arguing that the US is somehow more ‘free’ than somewhere like Britain. Wouldn’t you? We may not have it all written on one itty bitty bit of paper, but it’s still there. [/QUOTE] I have not been trying to make any such argument and I don’t intend to start. What I’ve been talking about in this thread is _what people think_, not _what rights do people have in practice_ ---
**Author:** ![zhongguorenmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/bcef8e/32.png) [@zhongguorenmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zhongguorenmin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/14 "2007-05-23T12:14:44Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Which ‘other countries’ are you talking about? Just out of interest, what nationality have you assumed me to be? The European Court Of Human Rights is a comparative newcomer on the scene, at least when we’re talking about prevailing popular notions (which we are here). [/QUOTE] I apologise for my bit of ad hominem. The ECHR was signed in 1950 IIRC - I’m not sure that counts as a newcomer. Still, your assertion that the UK doesn’t have its rights down in one place was wrong (I know you didn’t directly say this, but the implied contrast with the US was clear). zhongguorenmin ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/15 "2007-05-23T12:51:55Z")
I think I’m with Zack on this one: “What? The Land of the Free? Whoever told you THAT is your Enemy!” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/16 "2007-05-23T12:56:00Z")
[QUOTE=zhongguorenmin] The ECHR was signed in 1950 IIRC - I’m not sure that counts as a newcomer. [/quote] It does, I think, as far as the establishment of ingrained popular notions is concerned - which is all I intend to address in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Secret\_Volcano\_Lair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Secret\_Volcano\_Lair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Secret_Volcano_Lair)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/17 "2007-05-23T13:16:41Z")
I think the stats about people in prison are pretty meaningless unless those people were being imprisoned for things that aren’t crimes in most other places, which I doubt. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/18 "2007-05-23T13:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=Secret Volcano Lair] I think the stats about people in prison are pretty meaningless unless those people were being imprisoned for things that aren’t crimes in most other places, which I doubt. [/QUOTE] Our prisons have a lot of drug users in them, which is not the case in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/19 "2007-05-23T13:44:03Z")
I think it has to do with the fact that the country was established with the notion that freedom would be a bedrock principle of the country and the culture. A place like England isn’t the same, because although they have the same freedoms now, they didn’t always. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203/20 "2007-05-23T13:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Our prisons have a lot of drug users in them, which is not the case in other countries. [/QUOTE] Cite? I’m sure you’re ahead of, say, Holland in this department, but in most other Western democracies, drug offenders make up a large percentage of the prison population. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-of-the-free/405203.md?page=2)