# Land surveying... how does it work? How precise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709 "2011-03-23T11:38:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/21 "2011-03-24T11:26:01Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Based on the way I’ve been cutting my grass for 21 years … that counts doesn’t it ?😃 > > Here’s the story… > > Neighbor’s house was here first and the owner owned this lot too. Some time in the 1960’s he built our house on this lot and moved. At that time, he reconfigured the lots a bit to take a pie-shaped section by the road out of our lot and add a pie-shaped section by the lake to our lot. The purpose was to square both lots up to the lake a bit more … and perhaps to give his new home (mine now) more lake frontage. > > We bought in 1989 and I have a survey and description dated 1986 reflecting what I’ve described. We have always gotten tax bills for what remains of the original lot and the little pie section. > > I spoke to my neighbor yesterday and he didn’t know anything about the pies and says he only gets one bill. My wife tells me that the owners of that house told her a story once about the township trying to redescribe the lots and sending them one bill…perhaps that has contributed to some confusion. > > My neighbor told me that his surveyor found the iron marker at the point that is staked and flagged … but that could be the original. Do you think they would have sunk another marker later for that new boundary?? > > My neighbor is being pretty cool about the whole thing… in fact, I think he may be a bit concerned that it appears he built a stairway to his deck that is actually on my property… could be a good bargaining chip. I probably got you all confused with the above story… Neighbor 1 (who we never knew) built both houses and reconfigured the lots. Neighbor 2 bought from him and lived here until 2005…we know them and she told my wife all the property stories Neighbor 3 bought in 2005 and built the stairs (himself) and is doing the survey now. His older parents were also involved in purchasing the home to some degree (none of my business but may be contributing to his lack of knowledge). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/22 "2011-03-24T13:22:07Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > As a Realtor, we handle this by NEVER describing where the boundaries are (we aren’t surveyors – how could we know?). Instead, we say, “According to the Seller, the lot goes to that tree,” or, “The latest survey shows the boundaries on this map. If you need interpretation, please contact the surveyor.” > > We advise buyers of rural properties to have the property restaked or resurveyed to their satisfaction. City lots are less likely to have errors. I didn’t mean to impugn all realtors. It’s just that I’ve seen multiple cases, one in my own back yard, where a homeowner made assumptions based on what a realtor told them. Including a case where a realtor showed them what was obviously a pole from an old swingset (you could still see the painted decorations on it!) and told them it was their property marker. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/23 "2011-03-24T13:39:08Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > My neighbor is being pretty cool about the whole thing… in fact, I think he may be a bit concerned that it appears he built a stairway to his deck that is actually on my property… could be a good bargaining chip. if the survey comes out in your favor i would recommend immediately create a lease where you are renting him the land for the stairway, like for some token amount. IANAL ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/24 "2011-03-24T14:22:15Z")
Based on my limited experience, when the land was transferred, they may or may not have put in new pins. If the deed was recorded, it shouldn’t make much difference except you could show the new neighbor without a new survey. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@Mister\_Owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Owl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/25 "2011-03-24T15:30:55Z")
What the … !!! This is my last post in this thread. You are basically asking for expert, professional advice, not unlike asking for a legal opinion. I believe that there is at least one other land surveyor on this board, but no one other than myself has identified themselves as a land surveyor in this thread. Would you accept and follow important legal advice from some faceless unknown on the internet? Please talk with a local professional. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/26 "2011-03-24T17:09:28Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I didn’t mean to impugn all realtors. It’s just that I’ve seen multiple cases, one in my own back yard, where a homeowner made assumptions based on what a realtor told them. Including a case where a realtor showed them what was obviously a pole from an old swingset (you could still see the painted decorations on it!) and told them it was their property marker. I’m not offended. 🙂 The job of a real estate agent is to bring buyers and sellers together. Since that often involves rubbing elbows with many related disciplines, it’s hard for some agents to remember that they are not trained in surveying, building construction, mortgages, remodelling, or complicated legal matters. It would be wise for buyers and sellers to consider any advice from a non-expert accordingly, and while it might not be wrong, it isn’t what you are paying the agent for. If your deal hinges on specific advice, hire someone who is an expert in that field. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/27 "2011-03-25T05:01:47Z")
Talk to your neighbor. And if necessary get your own survey. Now a little story about land surveys. My great grandfather purchansed the ranch in 1893. It was surveyed at the time. the property next door was sold at some time and a seperate survey was done on that property. Both deeds were recorded at the county. The common property line had different measurements and angles. Sometime in the 60’s the property next door was sold and resurveyed. We got the notice what the new common boundry line between the properties would be. We were given a date to protest the new survey by. If we did not protest then tne new survey results bould be binding between both parties. No for the fun stuff. The back corner of the common fence was moved 11 feet. Which ment the two corner lines of the property no longer meet. The orgional 1893 deed gave the bearings in degees and tenths of degrees. the new line gave the bearings in degrees, minutes, seconds, and tenths of seconds. What was that lets move the fence line one inch. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/28 "2011-03-25T11:07:02Z")
> [@Mister\_Owl](#): > > What the … !!! > > This is my last post in this thread. You are basically asking for expert, professional advice, not unlike asking for a legal opinion. I believe that there is at least one other land surveyor on this board, but no one other than myself has identified themselves as a land surveyor in this thread. Would you accept and follow important legal advice from some faceless unknown on the internet? Please talk with a local professional. Nope… I’m gathering info, identifying issues and welcoming advice that I’ll take for what its worth. I’m a “professional” myself… if you call filling our government mandated forms once a year for people with the primary goal of reducing the amount they fork over to the government being professional. I definitely like the idea of a lease mentioned a couple posts back. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/30 "2016-09-05T14:15:43Z")
Just remember, the primary job of a surveyor is to make sure all property owners are satisfied and not fighting about the boundary. If you can do that without the surveyor, then there’s no problem, and no need to hire the surveyor. You might be able to sign a piece of paper with your neighbor that says that you agree that the bit where his stairs are is his property, and the part next to the lake where you’ve been mowing all these years is your property, and if you both agree to it, that’s where the boundary is, even if it isn’t where it was before. You’ll still need to go through the proper channels, of course (or if you don’t, then someone later will have to do so at greater difficulty), but it should be a lot cheaper than getting an entire new survey. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/32 "2016-09-05T14:34:11Z")
Whoops, didn’t even notice that this was a zombie (I guess that explains how such a long discussion cropped up since last I looked at GQ). ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/33 "2016-09-05T18:22:18Z")
**Moderator Note** This is an old thread that was raised by a spammer who has since been disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/34 "2016-09-05T22:18:42Z")
Since this thread has been revived, now is a good time to relate the saga of the Lake Wylie Mini Mart. For the last 20 years, North and South Carolina have been working to come up with a more precise demarcation of their common border, scheduled to take effect on January 1, 2017. As part of the improved survey, it was determined that the Lake Wylie Mini Mart was actually in North Carolina. The reason that the Mini Mart had been built in what it thought was just inside the South Carolina side was because: 1) Gas taxes are significantly higher in NC, 2) SC is less concerned about whether their citizens have their fingers blown off by big fireworks, and 3) they can sell beer in SC, but not in the part of NC they will become a part of. At this point it looks like the Mini Mart will get a waiver from NC to retain its SC privileges, but only as long as it is under current ownership, which greatly lessens its resale value. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/35 "2016-09-05T22:42:00Z")
> [@whitetho](#): > > At this point it looks like the Mini Mart will get a waiver from NC to retain its SC privileges, but only as long as it is under current ownership, which greatly lessens its resale value. We had a case like this locally, where the County Planning Department imposed a restriction on a property, saying that it could be a bed and breakfast in a residential neighborhood only if the ownership didn’t change. Three property owners in the county with similar restrictions got together and threatened to sue the county if the “one owner” restrictions weren’t removed. The county attorney reviewed state case law, and issued an opinion that the limited restrictions did not conform; that the county would lose in court if challenged; and they were removed without resort to the courts. If NC or SC law is similar, maybe the outcome could be similar, too. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/36 "2016-09-05T23:48:07Z")
I know this is a zombie but, to chime in, the reason why GPS isn’t used in surveying isn’t due to accuracy issues, it’s because GPS measures in absolute co-ordinates and surveyors use relative ones. The earth’s crust is constantly shifting but land plots do not. Thus, surveys are defined in terms of local features which move in lockstep with everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Jaguars](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaguars/32/5879_2.png) [@Jaguars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaguars)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/37 "2016-09-06T03:07:37Z")
Not true at all, I’m afraid 😉 While GPS does in fact measure using a worldwide grid, every survey grade receiver is able to convert to local coordinates. The beginning of a survey usually takes some time to lock in to local reference marks and then old measurement records are traced back to find out where the original guy put in the missing boundary marks. Any new boundary marks are put in and all the locations involved are recorded in whatever the current grid is. So if you like, the survey is localized and then recorded so that it becomes part of the greater system for the jurisdiction that you’re in. GPS measurements have their own problems, mainly working under tree cover or looming obstacles, and the expense of the receiver. Hence Theodolites with IR distance measuring gear are still in use as well. The Mini mart saga is a good example of the problems of boundary definition writ large. It’s not so much the land moving around, so much as the original records are old and not as accurate as we are used to these days. So what do you do to sort it out? Get out into the field and try and find the original monuments, and record their locations using modern techniques. If you can’t find enough of them, then you search the old survey records, maybe someone recorded where the old border markers when they did a place along the road 10 years later. The closer you can get to the original subject survey, the better. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/38 "2016-09-06T04:50:07Z")
In areas under the public lands survey system the original survey notes and monuments are the legal corners even if newer tech could improve them. A fancy GPS shouldn’t change much. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/39 "2016-09-06T11:53:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Just remember, the primary job of a surveyor is to make sure all property owners are satisfied and not fighting about the boundary. If you can do that without the surveyor, then there’s no problem, and no need to hire the surveyor. You might be able to sign a piece of paper with your neighbor that says that you agree that the bit where his stairs are is his property, and the part next to the lake where you’ve been mowing all these years is your property, and if you both agree to it, that’s where the boundary is, even if it isn’t where it was before. You’ll still need to go through the proper channels, of course (or if you don’t, then someone later will have to do so at greater difficulty), but it should be a lot cheaper than getting an entire new survey. If you want to come to a gentleman’s agreement that a small piece of land is the responsibility of party A even though it probably belongs to party B, that’s between the two of you. But if party B sells, the new owner is in no way bound to respect that agreement, and can immediately take possession back of that piece of land. Even if you’ve written it down, if you didn’t file it with the Registry of Deeds or whatever govt. agency handles such things in your location, your agreement is probably not binding on the next owner. And if B has a mortgage on the property, trying to sell off or give away a piece of the property without the agreement of the mortgagee is certainly in violation of the mortgage agreement, and probably fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/40 "2016-09-06T13:46:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Even if you’ve written it down, if you didn’t file it with the Registry of Deeds or whatever govt. agency handles such things in your location, your agreement is probably not binding on the next owner. That’s what I meant by “going through the proper channels”. It should still be fairly easy, if the landowners are in agreement. Though I’ll admit I hadn’t thought of the mortgage angle. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/41 "2016-09-06T14:07:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s what I meant by “going through the proper channels”. It should still be fairly easy, if the landowners are in agreement. > > Though I’ll admit I hadn’t thought of the mortgage angle. Well, you’d certainly need a description better than “the bit where his stairs are is his property, and the part next to the lake where you’ve been mowing all these years is your property” if you want to do a true legal transfer and file it with the county. So you’ll probably need a surveyor anyway to draw up new plots for each property, correctly describing and marking the portion to be transferred. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709/42 "2016-09-06T14:12:18Z")
> [@Jaguars](#): > > Not true at all, I’m afraid 😉 While GPS does in fact measure using a worldwide grid, every survey grade receiver is able to convert to local coordinates. The beginning of a survey usually takes some time to lock in to local reference marks and then old measurement records are traced back to find out where the original guy put in the missing boundary marks. Any new boundary marks are put in and all the locations involved are recorded in whatever the current grid is. So if you like, the survey is localized and then recorded so that it becomes part of the greater system for the jurisdiction that you’re in. > > GPS measurements have their own problems, mainly working under tree cover or looming obstacles, and the expense of the receiver. Hence Theodolites with IR distance measuring gear are still in use as well. Not to mention that for a LOT of surveying tasks, a multistation with the IR gun is more than accurate enough. From what I can tell, the main survey-related problems are more along the lines of enormous screwups\*, not that the lot line is maybe a half-inch east of where it should be at the northeast corner, and half an inch west at the southeast corner (which FYI, is a pretty large error even for a form/final survey). - I worked for a civil engineering/surveying firm during college, and during the summers, I was the fill-in survey crew member when people went on vacation. One week my crew was doing forms and finals, and we ran across one where the crew had surveyed the foundation form in the right place in the lot the month before (I was in the office at that point), and when we came back to survey the finished house, the house was like 8 feet to the left of where they’d originally surveyed the form, and smack-dab in the middle of a series of easements drawn up for the neighborhood. As best as the guys back at the office eventually could find out, the construction guys decided that the form was inconvenient for actually pouring the foundations for that house and the house next to it, so they just shifted it over so they could back the concrete truck right up to it. 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/land-surveying-how-does-it-work-how-precise/575709.md?page=3)