# Landlord installing "smart" devices throughout building **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 20, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109 "2019-01-20T16:44:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/21 "2019-01-21T04:03:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If the locks are all electronic with no mechanical back-ups that might violate laws and fire-safety codes. My current and former workplaces require a smartcard to enter, but exiting the building is always unsecured. In case of a fire, you exit the building, not run into an apartment or room. Also, most hotels have switched to keycards, not mechanical keys. Lose your card or forget it in the room and you go to the front desk to get a replacement. The OP didn’t specify, but apparently this is a secured building that may have someone on duty or on call 24/7. No different that having a mechanical lock. What do you do when you lose your key? You call the resident manager or a recommended locksmith to let you in. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/22 "2019-01-21T04:05:14Z")
> [@lingyi](#): > > I suspect the description is overblown and there’s a numeric keypad or electronic card key for those without a smartphone. > > As for the landlord knowing how often and when the tenant enters and leaves, that info could easily be obtained with security cameras on the floor. Even laws on security cameras vary from place to place. Most places yeah, a hallway would be fine, if it’s not pointed at the door of a specific tenant. Of course again this largely depends on your lease. Specific sections are included about this for places that use fobs. So it’s really only allowed if you sign the lease saying it’s allowed, and you still have a right to know who has access to the info and how it will be used. Even then there are specific laws on transmitting different information. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/23 "2019-01-21T10:31:18Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Presumably every member of the household would be required to own a mechanical key, which seems insane. And what if you lose your key, a not uncommon occurrence. You can’t get into your own home if you lose a key? Keys don’t cost $100+ to replace. Keys don’t break if you drop them. Keys don’t require batteries to work. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/24 "2019-01-21T10:34:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If the locks are all electronic with no mechanical back-ups that might violate laws and fire-safety codes. > [@lingyi](#): > > My current and former workplaces require a smartcard to enter, but exiting the building is always unsecured. In case of a fire, you exit the building, not run into an apartment or room. That’s assuming the locks default to “open”. There was an instance some years ago of an office building in Chicago where during a fire locks stayed locked and several people died after becoming trapped by that. In event of fire or power failure such locks need to default to “open”, allowing egress. Sadly, this does not always occur to the people who make such things. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/25 "2019-01-21T10:40:50Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Also the landlord having access to entry/exit information can be considered spying or checking up on a tenant too often in many locales. > Without specific reason to do so, ie suspected drug trafficking , this is also illegal > [@Littleman](#): > > Even laws on security cameras vary from place to place. > Most places yeah, a hallway would be fine, if it’s not pointed at the door of a specific tenant. > > Of course again this largely depends on your lease. Specific sections are included about this for places that use fobs. > > So it’s really only allowed if you sign the lease saying it’s allowed, and you still have a right to know who has access to the info and how it will be used. > > Even then there are specific laws on transmitting different information. Can you provide cites for these laws you are taking about? I’ve never heard of such things. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/26 "2019-01-21T12:07:10Z")
I’m almost a Luddite and shouldn’t get involved in these threads! > [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > … Yahoo doesn’t let you sign up for email anymore unless you have a smartphone. Nitpick: I have a dumb cell-phone. It’s got a crummy camera, and plays Snake and Tetris but I don’t think it qualifies as “smart.” Yet it can receive SMS’s which AFAIK is all that’s needed for e-mail registration, no? ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/27 "2019-01-21T12:50:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m almost a Luddite and shouldn’t get involved in these threads! > > Nitpick: I have a dumb cell-phone. It’s got a crummy camera, and plays Snake and Tetris but I don’t think it qualifies as “smart.” Yet it can receive SMS’s which AFAIK is all that’s needed for e-mail registration, no? You are not alone if you are unimpressed by fancy pants smartphones. Some phone makers have been taking note and have rejuvenated their best designs: > **[Nokia 3310 - The icon is back!](https://www.hmd.com/en_gb/nokia-3310)** > > Explore the Nokia 3310 Dual SIM, an updated classic by HMD. Choose from four colors, relive Snake, and enjoy its durable build and impressive battery life. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/28 "2019-01-21T13:37:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can you provide cites for these laws you are taking about? I’ve never heard of such things. I’ll gather a few this evening, however, don’t expect an exhaustive list from every locale. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/29 "2019-01-21T14:41:16Z")
> [@lingyi](#): > > As for the landlord knowing how often and when the tenant enters and leaves, that info could easily be obtained with security cameras on the floor. Define easily. With the smartphone, it’s a database query, assuming the landlord is storing the information. With a camera, you have to hire someone to review all the footage for the time in question, and then hope that they don’t doze off or miss something due to the person in question wearing a hat. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/30 "2019-01-21T16:14:00Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Define easily. With the smartphone, it’s a database query, assuming the landlord is storing the information. > > With a camera, you have to hire someone to review all the footage for the time in question, and then hope that they don’t doze off or miss something due to the person in question wearing a hat. You can fast forward through the footage where there’s no movement and there’s software techniques that can automatically stop the footage when there is movement, even in a certain area that can be marked for detection. If it’s a serious crime, the entire footage for the day(s) is given to law enforcement and they’ll review it for suspects. Not as easy as having a database, but worthwhile for someone wanting that info. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/31 "2019-01-21T16:15:32Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Define easily. With the smartphone, it’s a database query, assuming the landlord is storing the information. > > With a camera, you have to hire someone to review all the footage for the time in question, and then hope that they don’t doze off or miss something due to the person in question wearing a hat. That’s my impression as well. This person’s main concern is w/ security and hackability, rather than her personal access. Combined w/ the electric and water meters, someone can tell when she is home, showering, or asleep. Her informed opinion is that the electric door lock is considerably less secure than a deadbolt. Will be interesting to see how this sort of thing works out nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/32 "2019-01-21T16:24:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s assuming the locks default to “open”. There was an instance some years ago of an office building in Chicago where during a fire locks stayed locked and several people died after becoming trapped by that. > > In event of fire or power failure such locks need to default to “open”, allowing egress. Sadly, this does not always occur to the people who make such things. Not sure how that incident happened (definitely some violation of fire code happened), but every externally electronically locked door I’ve seen has a mechanical lock or mechanism on the inside that unlocks the door. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/33 "2019-01-21T16:43:16Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > That’s my impression as well. > > This person’s main concern is w/ security and hackability, rather than her personal access. Combined w/ the electric and water meters, someone can tell when she is home, showering, or asleep. Her informed opinion is that the electric door lock is considerably less secure than a deadbolt. > > Will be interesting to see how this sort of thing works out nationwide. Remote reading of the water and electric meters aren’t unique to this building. It’s been around for a while and is likely the future for all meter readings (after the meters are upgraded): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic\_meter\_reading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_meter_reading) Being able to pinpoint live activity assumes the reading is done continuously, not at set intervals. FYI, real time monitoring is already being done if your building has solar panels and NEM (Net Energy Metering). I worked for a couple of solar companies and they could log in a customer’s meter and see if it’s working correctly (i.e. changing) on a real time basis. Is there a reason for concern, possibly. But it’s just a modern day equivalent of a someone watching your apartment window to see when you turn the lights on and off. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/34 "2019-01-21T16:56:39Z")
> [@lingyi](#): > > … > > Is there a reason for concern, possibly. But it’s just a modern day equivalent of a someone watching your apartment window to see when you turn the lights on and off. Interesting take I’ll have to consider. But there seems a significant difference between requiring that a set of eyeballs watch a window, as opposed to being able to constantly watch thousands of windows… WRT the utility sensors, this person’s concerns involve the security of the multiple servers involved - which may be less than major utility companies I appreciate your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/35 "2019-01-21T17:13:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can you provide cites for these laws you are taking about? I’ve never heard of such things. Wait before I go digging through a bunch of laws this evening, do you want cites of privacy laws existing, or cites that they still apply if you happen to be a landlord or tenant who hasn’t specifically waved some in a lease? ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/36 "2019-01-21T18:09:02Z")
Many years ago my condo installed remotely read flow meters on the hot water heating registers in each unit. This allowed them to charge by usage instead of just dividing the total cost of the gas used for the boiler across all units. The average bill went down, but a few outliers, who liked their condo at 82 in the winter, went up. I’m all for the installation of smart meters and thermostats, particularly if it is associated with a fairer division of heating and cooling expenses. Even if not, it will probably reduce the total energy usage of the building. The electronic lock, not so much, but I understand. I’m an early adopter and technophile, and I do **not** have an electronic lock on my house. I can totally see why the building owners want them. They do not have to worry about former tenants keeping keys, or extra copies of keys floating around. They also do not have to keep track of their copies of the keys. As for security, I think it is an issue of fear of the unknown/known. Somebody in IT might know lots of ways the electronic locks can be bad (and they usually are terrible), and somebody not in IT might just be afraid of scary computer. Neither person though is considering how bad many mechanical locks are. They can usually be bumped or raked by even amateurs lock pickers. They are often installed with short screws, and the door can simply be kicked in. Master key and rekeyable systems have their own vulnerabilities. If the smart lock system is large unified setup controlled from a central location, they are probably more secure than the standalone consumer quality ones. Though, some devastating vulnerabilities have been found in some hotel style systems. I can see the privacy concerns of the owners having a log of every time tenents open their door, but I guess I’m not creative enough to see what nefarious thing they’ll do with that information. Charge a “hinge maintenance fee” if they open their door too much? Sell their names to restaurant delivery services if they go all weekend without leaving? ---
**Author:** ![McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDeath_the_Mad)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/37 "2019-01-21T18:16:49Z")
Like someone mentioned above, chances are the SMART lock would have a keypad on it. I have installed a SMART lock at my house and I LOVE IT. My wife, teenage daughter and myself each have our own code for the lock. So I know exactly when my daughter comes home from school (and leaves). We have cleaners as well, they have their own code. That code only works on Tuesdays between 9:00AM and 2:00PM. This is all controlled via a smart home controller (Vera), but all of the codes and schedules are downloaded to the SMART lock. So if the power is out or the home controller is down the codes still work (obviously the email and text alerts wouldn’t). The batteries last about 18 months in the lock and works in extreme cold (-30 Celsius). I also have a Ecobee thermostat and love the efficiencies it gives me. MtM ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/38 "2019-01-21T18:30:00Z")
There are two different issues being discussed here, with the ultimate answer being, if you don’t like / agree to it, leave. The smart lock may be subject to local jurisdiction / landlord-tenant agreement. But the electronic monitoring of electric and water is the prerogative of the landlord and may even be mandated by the utility companies. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/39 "2019-01-21T18:49:04Z")
> [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](#): > > Like someone mentioned above, chances are the SMART lock would have a keypad on it. > > I have installed a SMART lock at my house and I LOVE IT. My wife, teenage daughter and myself each have our own code for the lock. \*\*So I know exactly when my daughter comes home from school (and leaves). > \*\* > We have cleaners as well, they have their own code. That code only works on Tuesdays between 9:00AM and 2:00PM. > > This is all controlled via a smart home controller (Vera), but all of the codes and schedules are downloaded to the SMART lock. So if the power is out or the home controller is down the codes still work (obviously the email and text alerts wouldn’t). The batteries last about 18 months in the lock and works in extreme cold (-30 Celsius). > > I also have a Ecobee thermostat and love the efficiencies it gives me. > > MtM You’re not helping the paranoia. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109/40 "2019-01-21T19:35:07Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Wait before I go digging through a bunch of laws this evening, do you want cites of privacy laws existing, or cites that they still apply if you happen to be a landlord or tenant who hasn’t specifically waved some in a lease? You made a few claims that surprise me. I’m shortening your words to be concise, no misreprentation intended. I’m interested to see these substantiated: 1. A landlord is prohibited by law from tracking entry/exits of tenants too closely unless there is a suspicion of drug trafficking. 2. There are laws regarding the placement of security cameras, in which monitoring hallways is okay but not tenant doors. 3. Tenants have a right to know how landlords will use any entry/exit information (such as use of key fobs?) unless the tenant waives the right. I don’t know jack about privacy and tenancy laws, so I’d be curious to see which places have such laws. I’m not looking for an exhaustive list. I’m just curious to know, “in Texas, a landlord can be arrested for tracking what time the tenant in 2A leaves in the morning” or some such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/landlord-installing-smart-devices-throughout-building/828109.md?page=3)