# Language: If whales had it, would we know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2001, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392 "2001-04-18T03:53:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/181 "2024-03-19T04:38:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There is megafauna in Europe, Asia, and America to this day. Tangent. Megafauna can mean “Humans or larger”, which implies that white-tailed deer are megafauna or it can mean, “One metric ton or larger” - which I find more plausible for this discussion. Taking the 2nd definition, most bison are not megafauna, though some can weigh as much as 1180 kilograms, with the confirmed record being 1270 kg. Some may have weighed 1400 kg. Grizzly bears typically weigh comfortably below 600 kg. The record for polar bears just crosses the line at 1002 kg, though pregnant polar bears can weigh 1100 kg. Most are below a metric ton though. Ok, ok: Walruses. Those are megafauna: they can top out above 2000kg. Most weight between 700 and 1700kg. To be fair and complete, this wiki article actively applies both definitions, and characterizes the polar bear as megafauna: > **[Megafauna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megafauna)** > > In zoology, megafauna (from Greek μέγας megas "large" and Neo-Latin fauna "animal life") are large animals. The most common thresholds to be a megafauna are weighing over 46 kilograms (100 lb) (i.e., having a mass comparable to or larger than a human) or weighing over a tonne, 1,000 kilograms (2,205 lb) (i.e., having a mass comparable to or larger than an ox). The first of these include many species not popularly thought of as overly large, and being the only few large animals In practice, the ... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/182 "2024-03-19T12:29:24Z")
I prefer a more operational definition: “Can it kick your ass? If so, it’s megafauna.” Run away! Run away! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/183 "2024-03-19T13:15:30Z")
One megafauna that went extinct only ~12,000 years ago that I wish was with us still is the elephant-sized giant ground sloth ([megathere](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/cba54271-70f9-49df-bdb3-868f1bbbf7f8/ddifl6m-00e07360-4966-404f-a424-81b8968cbadd.jpg/v1/fill/w_900,h_438,q_75,strp/the_giant_ground_sloth_by_gredinia_ddifl6m-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.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.ozr8O7ggbDqiIN0Qc7-QrSZAGPAyZJT-aPWdputifao)). We wouldn’t have to run away from it, a leisurely stroll away would suffice. Imagine this colossal creature lumbering toward you like a sleepy freight train. Its massive claws scraping the ground, and its beady eyes squinting as if it’s trying to remember where it left its car keys. **Narrator** **(** **David Attenborough** **)**: _“And here we have a Homo sapien, the ultimate multitasker, about to engage in a favorite pastime: fleeing from megafauna. Watch closely as he executes the ‘Casual Evacuation Maneuver.’”_ You take a sip of your chocolate latte and start slowly strolling away. The giant ground sloth, meanwhile, is still trying to decide whether it wants to eat you or take a nap. It’s a tough call. **Giant Ground Sloth (thinking)**: _“Hmm, should I chase him, or perhaps just lie down and contemplate the meaning of life? Choices, choices.”_ **Narrator** : _“Our Homo sapien protagonist maintains a not so brisk pace. The sloth, however, is still pondering its existential crisis.“_ Finally, you reach a safe distance. The sloth yawns, revealing teeth the size of your forearm. You nod respectfully. It nods back, as if to say, _“Yeah, I could’ve caught you, but I’m on a low-carb diet.”_ And so, you continue your leisurely stroll, leaving the giant ground sloth behind. It’s a tale as old as time: humans fleeing, sloths contemplating, and the universe shrugging its shoulders. **Narrator** : _“And thus concludes our documentary, ‘Sloths: The Original Chill Giants.’ Tune in next time for ‘Sabertooth Tigers: Dental Hygiene Nightmares.’”_ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/184 "2024-03-19T13:39:32Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > We wouldn’t have to run away from it, a leisurely stroll away would suffice. I wouldn’t count on giant ground sloths being slow and lumbering just because modern sloths are. Remember, South America was basically like Australia in that it had a fully isolated set of mammals evolving in parallel to the Afroeurasian-North American assemblage\*. So you got a new class of beasties, the Xenarthra, who were very diverse and widespread. Anteaters, ground sloths, glyptodonts, armadillos, and more all came from this group. Modern tree sloths evolved down a path very similar to the koala. They are small, live in trees, exclusively eat very nutrient poor and difficult to digest leaves, etc. When you live that kind of lifestyle, moving extremely slowly in order to conserve energy, and basically being a hanging furry ball with a fermentation chamber inside, is a necessary adaptation for survival. But I wouldn’t assume that slowness is necessarily an ancestral trait of sloths as a group. Giant ground sloths were not adapted for this sort of life, and were in fact quite diverse - some were monstrously big, others burrowed, others swam. Much like the Diprotodon from Asutralia, I wouldn’t assume that just because their closest living relatives are so pathetic that ground sloths would not have been quite formidable. \*Is there a term for this ecoregion? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/185 "2024-03-19T13:45:20Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > thus concludes our documentary, ‘Sloths: The Original Chill Giants.’ I’m wondering how scientists know that the extinct elephant-size giant sloth moved as slowly as the modern sloth. [Editing: ninja’d by Babale. Who said it better .Thanks.] ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/186 "2024-03-19T16:57:08Z")
Points well taken, though [these](https://dinoanimals.com/animals/megatherium-megathere-elephant-sized-sloth/) [articles](https://www.extinctanimals.org/giant-ground-sloth-megatherium.htm) [claim](https://wildexplained.com/animal-encyclopedia/the-megatherium-an-extinct-giant-sloth/) megatherium was one of the slowest animals in its ecosystem, with a slow metabolism. In any case, if we take a time travel trip to visit them, I’ll be sure to walk a little faster than you guys. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/187 "2024-03-19T21:27:49Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Tangent. Megafauna can mean “Humans or larger”, which implies that white-tailed deer are megafauna or it can mean, “One metric ton or larger” - which I find more plausible for this discussion. Taking the 2nd definition, most bison are not megafauna, though some can weigh as much as 1180 kilograms, with the confirmed record being 1270 kg. Some may have weighed 1400 kg. Grizzly bears typically weigh comfortably below 600 kg. The record for polar bears just crosses the line at 1002 kg, though pregnant polar bears can weigh 1100 kg. Most are below a metric ton though. Deer only give 60-70 lbs of meat, so they’re not megafauna, though they’re close. Bison and bears give much more, but you can only carry 100 lbs back to your wagon. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/188 "2024-05-08T15:01:05Z")
Bumping for a news story, more information: > **[What are sperm whales saying? Researchers find a complex 'alphabet'](https://www.npr.org/2024/05/07/1249546255/sperm-whale-communication-ai-language)** > > Researchers say sperm whales have a complex communication system, an example of how new technology is opening up the mysterious world of animal language. > Gero teamed up with artificial intelligence researchers to create [Project CETI](https://www.projectceti.org/) in the hope of decoding what sperm whales are saying. They analyzed more than 9,000 recordings of Caribbean sperm whales using advanced computer algorithms. > > “In using machine learning to detect the clicks, we found that there were so many more clicks than people could manually segment from the data set,” says Rus, who worked on the project. > > The team found sperm whales have a large repertoire of clicks, which they’ve catalogued in a sperm whale “phonetic alphabet.” Sometimes they slightly vary the tempo of the clicks in a coda. Sometimes the length of the coda is subtly longer or shorter. Sometimes the whales throw in an extra click. These variations can be matched closely by different whales communicating. The patterns also appear to be based on the context of the conservation. > > “They can be predicted by machine learning in the same way you might predict the sequence of syllables or the sequence of words in a sentence,” Rus says. “It really turned out that sperm whale communication was indeed not random or simplistic, but rather structured.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/189 "2024-05-09T10:40:57Z")
Very cool @thorny_locust! So returning to my first contribution to this thread: > [@DSeid](#): > > would the current brute force machine learning pattern recognition tools, fed large amounts of whale songs and responses, be able to apply the equivalent of large language models to the data set? And then respond to whale songs evoking responses back to provide more data? Would the nature of those call and response answers if it was language? Your link documents better minds than mine doing the first part and succeeding in recognizing complex variety that is conversation dependent. You think they might attempt what seemed to me to be a logical next step? Creating a cetacean large language model that responds and engages with whales in the wild even though it has no “understanding” of the meaning? A complicating factor is that we already know there are very different cetacean cultures (ecotypes) even within the same general geographical space: will those groups have different languages or at least dialects? Of course now searching someone else has thought about that! > **[Do different killer whale ecotypes communicate in the same way? - Baleines en...](https://baleinesendirect.org/en/do-different-killer-whale-ecotypes-communicate-in-the-same-way/)** > > Following our article on the various killer whale ecotypes, one reader asked whether killer whales of different ecotypes are able to communicate with each > [@](#): > > Even within ecotypes, there are “acoustic clans” which have their own dialect, strictly used for communication purposes. For example, the resident population of the Pacific has matriarchal units of two or three individuals that share the same whistles and calls. Thanks to the latter, the killer whales are able to recognize their “loved ones” and occasionally communicate over long distances. These types of vocalizations provide social cohesion within the group, and, unlike clicks used for hunting, are not shared by the entire community. > > According to researchers, the existence of such “acoustic clans” is the result of cultural transmission. Indeed, their dialect is not “innate”, but rather learned and transmitted from generation to generation or between members of the same clan. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/190 "2024-05-12T14:34:21Z")
Somewhat belatedly: thanks, interesting article. Seems rather like humans: different language groups, some words and/or phrasings used as family in-language, everybody recognizes a cry of pain or somebody cooing at a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/191 "2025-02-09T05:15:21Z")
In common with human language, humpback whale songs follow Zipf’s law and Menzerath’s law. [Zipf’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf%27s_law), from Wiki: “When a list of measured values is sorted in decreasing order, the value of the n-th entry is often approximately [inversely proportional](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversely_proportional) to n.” Comment: Zipf’s Law has also been observed in city sizes. I’m curious about whether the researchers included a control in their experiment. Would recordings of jackhammer sounds or ocean waves on the beach follow Zipf’s law? I see that the researchers did [validate their study by scrambling the whale noises](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adq7055) and running their tests on a set of artificial datasets. But I’d like a more naturalistic approach. [Menzerath’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menzerath%27s_law) is linguistic only. It states that longer sentences tend to contain shorter words. Huh. I have the same question about experimental controls. Gifted article. Scientific American and New Scientist also covered this. > **[Humpback Whales Sing the Way Humans Speak](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/06/science/language-humpback-whale-song.html?unlocked_article_code=1.vk4.r7f8.RIAb_Nsv9MB5&smid=url-share)** > > The animals’ complex songs share structural patterns with human language that may make them easier for whales to learn, a new study suggests. Science mag: > The findings don’t suggest whales have a language, where combinations of sounds have fixed meaning and join together in grammatical structures, Garland emphasizes. But the research offers scientists an “amazing window” into how this core property of human communication appears in other species. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2025, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/192 "2025-04-28T02:41:21Z")
Another update on an LLM approach. > **[DolphinGemma: How Google AI is helping decode dolphin communication](https://blog.google/technology/ai/dolphingemma/)** > > Dolphin researchers are using Gemma and Google Pixel phones to try to decipher how dolphins talk to one another. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392/193 "2025-12-01T22:41:07Z")
[Gifted NYT article by whale speech researcher.](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/23/opinion/whale-language-ai.html?unlocked_article_code=1.5U8.ftCc.7ZvwsIA5kShA&smid=url-share) David Gruber is a marine biologist and the head of Project CETI: “This month we published a [study](https://direct.mit.edu/opmi/article/doi/10.1162/OPMI.a.252/133906/Vowel-and-Diphthong-Like-Spectral-Patterns-in) that showed that sperm whales have what appears to our team to be vowels and diphthongs, and use them in ways [similar to how humans do](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.09.658556v1).” From the 2nd link: > Sperm whales communicate using series of clicks known as _codas_. The codas acoustically resemble human vowels. In addition, they pattern in ways similar to human sound systems. For example, different coda types are correlated with particular click qualities, and their durations are intentionally controlled. This shows that sperm whale vocalizations are highly complex and likely constitute one of the most sophisticated communication systems in the animal kingdom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392.md?page=9)