# Language in Ireland **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705 "2001-07-16T17:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wooba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@wooba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wooba)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/1 "2001-07-16T17:12:26Z")
I just recently got back from a trip to Ireland and when I was telling somebody that the signs were billigual in Gaelic/English, they corrected me that it was not Gaelic, but Irish… I did some research and found that it is indeed Irish… I didn’t even know there was such a language… Is it any different to Gaelic? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/2 "2001-07-16T17:48:58Z")
OK, this was bound to come up sooner or later. Answer: Yes-and-no. (It depends how you define your terms.) The Irish language is indeed Gaelic. The native Irish name for itself is **Gaeilge**. However, the preferred name for the language in English is “Irish.” (Calling it “Erse” is obsolete and should not be used.) Now, within Great Britain, if you say “Gaelic” it’s taken to mean Scots Gaelic. Scots Gaelic, to give it its full name, is the Celtic language spoken in the Highlands of Scotland. Its name for itself is _Gàidhlig_. It is very closely related to Irish Gaelic; in fact, they can be considered two dialects of the same Gaelic language. You see, the ethynonym _Scot_ originally meant ‘Irish’. The Scots migrated from Ireland to Caledonia in the 5th-6th centuries, which is how Caledonia came to be called “Scotland.” They came speaking Old Irish, which in the centuries since has diverged into Irish (Gaelic) and (Scots) Gaelic. The British have this assumption that if you just say “Gaelic” it automatically means only the Scots variety, as if the existence of Irish Gaelic could simply be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![mongrel\_8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@mongrel\_8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mongrel_8)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/3 "2001-07-16T19:32:11Z")
I don’t have anything to add other than as usual **Jomo Mojo** is the doper to go to for authoritative linguistics answers. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/4 "2001-07-16T21:55:43Z")
Just a couple other things. In Ireland, the native language is _more commonly_ referred to as “Irish”, but the word “Gaelic” is used at times too. Mainly when it wouldn’t be clear from the context that the Irish language (as opposed to Irish anything-else) is what’s being discussed, but some people use it as a matter of course. There are also some people who are absolute sticklers for calling it “Irish” - wooba, you obviously met one of them - but most people won’t be bothered to correct you if you call it “Gaelic”. “Erse” is not merely obsolete, it’s now offensive to many. Don’t use it. > [@](#): > > The British have this assumption that if you just say “Gaelic” it automatically means only the Scots variety, as if the existence of Irish Gaelic could simply be ignored. True, but it works both ways. If you say “Gaelic” when you’re in Ireland people will simply assume you’re talking about the Irish variety. BTW, in Scottish English, “Gaelic” rhymes with “phallic”. And Jomo, you forgot about Manx … ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/5 "2001-07-17T00:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\* > BTW, in Scottish English, “Gaelic” rhymes with “phallic”._\* Does it now? \ > [@](#): > > \*\*And Jomo, you forgot about Manx … \*\* Ah, yes. Manx is just as Gaelic as the other two. The funny thing about it is how different it looks when written, because the English got ahold of it and screwed with the spelling. It is spelled as though an Englishman with a poor understanding of phonetics tried to write it phonetically as it sounded to him, given the vagaries of English spelling. Examples. The numbers 1-10 in Gaeilge, Gàidhlig, and Manx. 1. aon aon un 2. dhá dà daa 3. trí trì tree 4. ceithre ceithir kiare 5. cúig còig queig 6. sé sia shey 7. seacht seachd shiaght 8. ocht ochd hoght 9. naoi naoi nuy 10. deich deich jeih fire tine teine çhenney water uisce uisge ushtey earth talamh talamh thalloo sun grian grian grian [sub](well, for once they all came out the same)[/sub] star realta rionnag rollage light solas soillse sollys human duine daonna dooinney man fear fear fer woman bean bean ben ---
**Author:** ![fandango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5ac83/32.png) [@fandango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fandango)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/6 "2001-07-17T01:02:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\* > Now, within Great Britain, if you say “Gaelic” it’s taken to mean Scots Gaelic. > \*\* I’ve always used and seen more often than not “Scottish” instead of “Scots” used with Gaelic. I tended to prefer it because “Scots” is usually meant to refer to Inglis or Lallans. Which is more common, “Scots Gaelic” or “Scottish Gaelic”? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/7 "2001-07-17T05:04:08Z")
I believe Scots Gaelic is correct, although I don’t see the harm in “Scottish.” Just as long as you don’t say “Scotch Gaelic,” which is the Gaelic one speaks after too many scotches. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/8 "2001-07-17T07:17:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > **Manx is just as Gaelic as the other two. The funny thing about it is how different it looks when written, because the English got ahold of it and screwed with the spelling. It is spelled as though an Englishman with a poor understanding of phonetics tried to write it phonetically as it sounded to him, given the vagaries of English spelling.** That’s basically what happened. Manx orthography was invented by an Englishman - it had been purely a spoken language before this time (c. late 1700s). As to Scots v. Scottish, there is no “correct” term. Either is perfectly acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/9 "2001-07-17T16:00:12Z")
Just stickin my tuppence in, Irish Gaelic (pronounced gay-lic), Scots Gaelic (gah-lic). ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/10 "2001-07-18T02:46:34Z")
I happened to notice that the word “scotia” has its orgins in a word roughly meaning “dark” or “darkness.” Any connection between that word and “Scot?” The Land of Dark People (or just Darkness), maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/11 "2001-07-18T03:17:37Z")
I have my own theory about Scotia etymology that has nothing to do with darkness. The ancient legends of the Irish say that in the remote past they sojourned in Egypt. One of their ancestors made it with Pharaoh’s daughter, name of Scota. She lent her name to the nation of their descendents. A fantastic tale, sure, but who’s to say there mightn’t be a nugget of truth contained therein? Could there be an Egyptian etymology for Scota? Recall that in ancient Egyptian they only wrote the consonants. We’re looking at S-K-T. One female Egyptian name matches this pattern: the goddess [**Sekhet**](http://elisabat.netgod.net/sekhmet.html). Her name (written S-Kh-T in Egyptian; we don’t actually know which vowels were there) means ‘She who is powerful’. In Egyptian the ending -t is for the feminine gender. It’s not inconceivable that the Scots got their name from an Egyptian fertility goddess. Considering the Goddess worship of the ancient Celts (just been watching _The Mists of Avalon_), that would be appropriate. Go Goddess! ---
**Author:** ![mongrel\_8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@mongrel\_8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mongrel_8)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/12 "2001-07-18T15:33:55Z")
The last Archaeology magazine had a very interesting article on the Scotti. It talked about digs being preformed in Scotland that were helping to show that the Scotti originally came from Ireland. It then went on and told the supposed history of the Scotti’s migration to Scotland and their final confluence with the Picts due to Norse invasions. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMadHun \* > \*\*Just stickin my tuppence in, Irish Gaelic (pronounced gay-lic), Scots Gaelic (gah-lic). \*\* Pronouncing Scots Gaelic as gah-lic sounds so close to the prounciation of Gaullic that it would be confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/13 "2001-07-20T13:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mongrel\_8 \* > \*\*Pronouncing Scots Gaelic as gah-lic sounds so close to the prounciation of Gaullic that it would be confusing. \*\* Actually, it made me think of “garlic,” but there you are. If as **ruadh** proposed, we rhyme it with phallic, then Gallic is already a word used in reference to France. I don’t know if anyone caught my implied pun: “Gaelic shrug.” ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/14 "2001-07-21T16:48:28Z")
So in that case, is there any term for “the way the English language is spoken in Ireland”. Would that be Irish-English? ---
**Author:** ![b-side](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@b-side](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b-side)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/15 "2001-07-21T18:56:51Z")
Obviously a lot of knowledge about the language and its history already posted. Just wanted to throw in that calling the language “Irish” has some political overtones. In the early part of the 20th century, when independence loomed, there was a movement to bring the language back (just as today, English was the predominantly used language) with the slogan “Irish for the Irish.” The movement was begun mainly amongst Irish intellectuals such as George Russell (a.k.a. Æ - you can’t see that too well, its the A merged with E symbol - you know what I’m talking about, right?). The point, in brief: if the island was called Ireland, and it had its own language, Irish, then what the hell were the English doing there (or their language). There are still areas of Ireland where the language is spoken, most noteably the Arin Islands off the west coast. Irish children are taught the language in school, but most adults will admit to having forgotten it in the same way many forget algebra - it is not used later in life. Specified areas in the west of Ireland, called Gaeltacht, exist for the preservation of the language. My cousins told me that they had to go to a Gaeltacht during the summer when they were young, but I don’t know if this is a common practice. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/16 "2001-07-21T21:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PookahMacPhellimey \* > \*\* > > So in that case, is there any term for “the way the English language is spoken in Ireland”. Would that be Irish-English? \*\* The most common term would be “Hiberno-English.” However, Irish linguist Loreto Todd divides “Irish English” into three historical categories: Anglo-English (spoken by Anglo-Norman settlers), Ulster English (spoken by Scottish settlers) - those two categories she collectively calls “Planter English” - and Hiberno-English (spoken by descendants of Gaeilge speakers). And her term for the modern dialect(s) that these three categories have blended into is “Green English”. Just to add to b-side’s post, the movement to bring back Irish began in the late 19th century, and was a precursor to the early 20th century fight for political independence, many of those who fought in the Easter Rising having been previously involved in the Gaelic League and other similar associations. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/17 "2001-07-22T01:37:49Z")
Why is “Erse” offensive? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-in-ireland/72705/18 "2001-07-22T08:09:58Z")
“Erse” originally applied to the language spoken in the Scottish Highlands and (western) Islands. This language was brought to Scotland by Irish settlers and at the time it was simply a dialect of Irish. The Lallans (Lowland Scots) speakers therefore gave it the name “Erse”. Now, we have a situation where Scots Gaelic is a distinct language in its own right, and where Lallans arguably isn’t, and for some reason “Erse” has come to be used _in English_ to refer to Scots Gaelic’s parent language. And its parent language already has a name in English: Irish. So the Irish object to the term because (a) it’s superfluous, (b) they don’t see the early Scots Gaelic dialects as being the language they use today, © it’s mainly used by people who _think_ they know something about the language, but obviously can’t be bothered to really learn about it, and (d) it’s mainly used by the British, and any term about Ireland that is used more by British people than by Irish is going to _ipso facto_ irritate a lot of people here (see also the use of “Eire” for the Republic of Ireland).