# Language is meaningless!

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [November 21, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897 "2002-11-21T08:06:41Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/81 "2002-11-25T12:41:15Z")

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\*\* hazel-rah\*\*

Re: When does thought become language?  
From a materialist position;

Our senses organs are basically detectors. The redness of an apple is not intrinsic to the apple.

Eyes are escentually light detectors. When light rays or photons come in contact with an apples surface some are absorbed and some are reflected and enter our eyes and a signal is sent to the brain which produces thoughts of redness, form, shape, texture etc. The qualia are an idea, a thought in the brain which appears to be extended in space\>\> **out there** \<\<.

When a tree falls in the forest the acoustic energy or sound waves spread out from the epi centre of the crash **in complete silence.** It is only when the waves come in contact with an ear drum [and a brain] can there is said to be **sound.** The universe is silent.

Person X says, “Can you see the apple?”

Same thing, no sound actually is emitted from her mouth. When the acoustic waves hit my ear drum and send a signal to my brain my brain creates a sound, as a thought, with all its varied complexities from the incoming data.

Her voice utterances become an idea in my mind. The photons reflecting of her body, her sent, and body image are perceived as ideas, accompanied by various intensities of other internal thoughts.

## From this perspective the perceived world is an externalization of thought, and language is some aspect of that thought. But when does thought become language? When it leaves the privacy of [internal] thinking and becomes an idea in some ones mind?

Of course the nondual perspective is that **all** is mind, including photons.

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**Author:** ![Mac007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9a28c/32.png) [@Mac007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac007)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/82 "2002-11-27T08:13:06Z")

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If language is meaningless how come when a crook sticks a gun in one’s face and says give me all your cash the meaning is clearly understood?😉

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**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/83 "2002-11-27T17:18:17Z")

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Language is meaningless…  
“How am I to understand what he means when all he gives me are signs?”

“Well, how is _he_ to know what he means when all _he_ has are signs?”

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**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/84 "2002-11-27T18:25:12Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Pythagras \*  
> \*\*But is it a correct approach to take? Should we, instead, approach the Universe more wholistically? Is dividing up the world from a sea of everything into a set of things a legitimate methodology? \*\*

Doubleplus ungood  
😕

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**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/85 "2002-11-27T19:32:28Z")

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\*\*

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**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/86 "2002-11-27T19:41:28Z")

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Kal wrote (way back at the start);

> [@](#):
>
> I’ll respond via the medium of dance.
> 
> ::jiggle, jiggle::  
> ::hop::  
> ::spin::  
> ::jiggle, jiggle::  
> ::cha cha cha::
> 
> Hope that clears it up for the OP.

This is what I really enjoy about this site. Kal’s answer to the OP is not only clever but is in itself an excellent answer.

Way to go Kal!!!

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**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/87 "2002-11-28T06:51:28Z")

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Dude,

Never mind “wholeness” vs. individualness, I’m still tripping on your 172 posts and you’ve just registered THIS month! :eek:

Patty

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**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/88 "2002-11-30T05:32:03Z")

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At times like this I like to ask myself, “What would Noam Chomsky do?”

And then I think, well, he’d probably do something like this:  
…CP  
…C’  
…TP  
… T’  
… t(k)… VP  
… t(j)…V’  
… DP(i) V(k) … DP(j) V t(i)  
… What Would Noam Do?

Or at least he would have awhile ago; I haven’t spent much time with Minimalism yet.

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**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/89 "2002-11-30T11:11:11Z")

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\*\*— .-. … --. … -. .- .-… .-… -.-- .-.-.- .–. — … - . -… .-.-.- -… -.-- .-.-.- .-… … -… . .-. - .- .-. … .- -. \*\*

> [@](#):
>
> …- . .-. -.-- .-.-.- … -. - . .-. . … - … -. --. .-.-.- - … .- -. -.- …

-.-- — …- .-.-.- .- .-. . .-.-.- .-- . .-… -.-. — – . .-.-.- .- -. -… .-.-.- - … .- -. -.- … .-.-.- …-. — .-. .-.-.- .-. . … .–. — -. -… … -. --. .-.-.- … -. .-.-.- -.- … -. -… .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.- 🙂

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**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/90 "2002-11-30T13:01:22Z")

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To try to take the op a little seriously, isn’t that the one of the points of Zen Buddahism? The koans teach that we come to understanding the universe limited by how we have learned to perceive it, but such may not be the best basis. It tries to shatter our presumptions and assumption.

In another way, what we use as language, the evolution and ontogeny of language, tells us much of ontology. Linguistics is a reasonable model of how we form perceptions of a presumed independent reality in general. Language is helpful for what is in our experience (as a culture) but limiting and even misleading when trying to understand something outside of our cultural experience.

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**Author:** ![mrcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@mrcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrcrow)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/91 "2002-11-30T15:41:01Z")

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language requires at least a sender and receiver  
to impart knowledge  
dumb animals have a ‘language’ since they communicate with each other and are really dumb enough not to use words. as i suspect also do insects and other life forms  
we have gotten a bit too big for our mouths.  
our vocabulary is only consistent with out existent.  
and as was pointed out no object really discerns what it is called unless by concencus.🙂

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**Author:** ![TerryW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@TerryW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TerryW)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/92 "2002-11-30T20:42:45Z")

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If you must know, the Kabalarians are made up of many linguists, scientists, and other respectable officials.

It’s kind of funny the way people assume so much.

Kabalarians know exactly what they’re talking about, and yet everybody who reads the word “assumes” that they are some “religious cult”… hahaha…

sad little people.

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**Author:** ![michijo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@michijo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michijo)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/93 "2012-11-25T19:25:44Z")

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I think language is only used to confuse, and little sincerity can come from it. The purist languages are computer programming languages like haskell, which do what they are supposed to do, and mean only what the mean without any innuendo. Annoying things which spoken languages have created – religion, war, governments, and forum trolls.

Things which other forms of art have created: beautiful paintings and peaceful songs.

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**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/94 "2012-11-25T19:46:22Z")

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You revived a ten year old Zombie thread just to demonstrate that you are not familiar with Goya’s The Third of May 1808, Picasso’s Guernica, Work’s Marching Through Georgia, or The Merry Ploughboy? 😛

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**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/95 "2012-11-25T21:24:23Z")

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I think there is a plan afoot to revive every thread the Dope ever had (that still exists) in order.

I thought the OP was an odd contribution for someone who had been here 10 years - then I became enlightened.

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**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/96 "2012-11-25T21:58:05Z")

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Thread is doubleplusungood.

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**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/97 "2012-11-25T23:18:44Z")

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Splunge!

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**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/98 "2012-11-25T23:42:43Z")

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> [@michijo](#):
>
> I think language is only used to confuse, and little sincerity can come from it. The purist languages are computer programming languages like haskell, which do what they are supposed to do, and mean only what the mean without any innuendo. Annoying things which spoken languages have created – religion, war, governments, and forum trolls.
> 
> Things which other forms of art have created: beautiful paintings and peaceful songs.

I find this post confusing and insincere.

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**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/99 "2012-11-25T23:54:05Z")

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I kind of wish the OP had come back to explain what he means in more practical terms. Just a zenish awareness of the suchness of things beyond their objectification? Or some actual change in the way we communicate?

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**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-is-meaningless/137897/100 "2012-11-26T11:48:46Z")

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> [@Pythagras](#):
>
> Wow, I cant believe this thread is still alive :).

Posted 11-24-2002 when the thread was 3 days old. Too bad Pythagras isn’t around anymore.

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