# Language/oral tradition question: a face like Grindle **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 11, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260 "2013-07-11T22:45:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/1 "2013-07-11T22:45:03Z")
My mother-in-law uses the phrase ‘a face like Grindle’ to mean someone who’s looking seriously pissed off (with connotations of ugliness as well), as in ‘After they made her sandwich wrong, she spent the whole evening with a face like Grindle on her.’ When you ask her what or who Grindle is, she says, ‘You know, _Grindle_!’ According to her, everyone says it, her granny said it; my husband agrees that he’s heard other people from their neighbourhood (mostly older people) say it. I’m wondering: is there the slightest chance that this comes from Grendel out of _Beowulf_? My husband’s from a very old, very tight-knit community in central Dublin. They do use phrases that were used in seventeenth-century England and have fallen out of use everywhere but here (of course I can’t come up with a single example right now, but I’ve spotted a handful over the years) - but a Beowulf allusion would go back a lot farther than that. My mother-in-law left school at fourteen to work in a factory, which was par for the course for her family and her neighbourhood, so it seems unlikely that they got it from their studies of Anglo-Saxon literature. But Dublin’s always been a port town with plenty of cultural exchange - so it seems pretty likely that if Beowulf had a solid place in English oral tradition, either before or after it was written down, the story would’ve jumped the Irish Sea to Dublin. And the Dublin accent could very easily change the short e of Grendel to a short i. Could the phrase possibly have travelled this far down the generations? And if not, who or what the heck is Grindle? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/2 "2013-07-11T23:27:18Z")
Assuming a literate M-I-L, it’s possible she’s referring to Grindel– > **[Grendel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel)** > > Grendel is a character in the Anglo-Saxon epic poem Beowulf (700–1000). He is one of the poem's three antagonists (along with his mother and the dragon), all aligned in opposition against the protagonist Beowulf. Grendel is feared by all in Heorot but Beowulf. A descendant of Cain, Grendel is described as "a creature of darkness, exiled from happiness and accursed of God, the destroyer and devourer of our human kind". He is usually depicted as a monster or a giant, although his status as a Grend... from Beowulf. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/3 "2013-07-12T00:18:33Z")
Even people who might not have read Beowulf may have been familiar with a few of the characters and ideas because they heard someone else mention them. Surely in any sort of city environment you’re going to have some people who are very well read who interact on a daily basis with other people in the community. Also, Beowulf written down in Old English _a thousand years ago_ and may have been part of an older oral tradition, and there are plenty of Modern English translations available and probably quite a few non-English versions too, so it’s not like you have to be a PhD of Anglo-Saxon Classics to find out for yourself who Grendel is. It’s probably more likely that the knowledge comes through exposure to a modern translation than to oral knowledge passed down over centuries and centuries of parents telling bedtime stories to kids and then the kids tell the same story. If there is serious evidence that your MIL is in possession of an independent oral tradition of Beowulf, academics are going to want to interview her and publish a few dozen papers on her. To make an analogy, I’ve never actually read Moby Dick but I know it’s about this guy and a whale. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/4 "2013-07-12T00:20:11Z")
A descent from Beowulf seems most probable — I may be the only person to exist who feels slightly sorry for Grendal, and very sorry for his mother — but I gave this nagging feeling, quite possibly wrong, that _Grindle_ may have been a term or name for a cat in the 18th century. Prolly tabby. Googling Grindle + cat is no help as it just gives links to contemporary cats ( and dogs ) named Grindle or Grendal; and I have to limit exposure to cute cat links. _Had We but World enough and Time…_ ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/5 "2013-07-12T00:29:57Z")
Any chance she’s talking about[an obscure 1960s situation comedy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindl)? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/6 "2013-07-12T00:32:24Z")
I’m wondering if it might be derived from [Mrs. Grundy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Grundy). Her character began in a late 18th Century play, but was used throughout literature in the 19th and 20th Centuries, by such notables as Dickens, Lewis Carroll and Dostoevski. She’s a very disapproving woman, giving rise to the phrase: “Oh, but what will Mrs. Grundy say.” A face like Mrs. Grundy’s would be disapproving, and pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![FeAudrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/7 "2013-07-12T02:34:45Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > … I may be the only person to exist who feels slightly sorry for Grendal, and very sorry for his mother … Not quite: > **[Grendel (novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel_(novel))** > > Grendel is a 1971 novel by the American author John Gardner. It is a retelling of part of the Old English poem Beowulf from the perspective of the antagonist, Grendel. In the novel, Grendel is portrayed as an antihero. The novel deals with finding meaning in the world, the power of literature and myth, and the nature of good and evil. > In a 1973 interview, Gardner said, "In Grendel I wanted to go through the main ideas of Western civilization – which seemed to me to be about ... twelve? – and go ... ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/8 "2013-07-12T08:06:33Z")
I like Terry Pratchett’s take on Beowulf > [@](#): > > “Monsters are getting more uppity, too (…) I heard where this guy, he killed this monster in this lake, no problem, stuck its arm up over the door (…) and you know what? Its mum come and complained. Its actual mum come right down to the hall next day and complained. Actually complained. That’s the respect you get.” > ― Terry Pratchett, _Guards! Guards_! ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/9 "2013-07-12T11:57:33Z")
I recall a character on a 1950s BBC radio show, maybe on _[Educating Archie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educating_Archie)_, called Grimble. One of the show’s catchphrases was, IIRC, “Don’t grumble Grimble!” which suggests the character tended to be unhappy, which seems to the OP’s point. (Grimble may have been Archie’s tutor on the show, and may have been played by Tony Hancock, but my memories are very old and there is not much about the show on the obvious web sites.) In the 1960s (and into the '70s), another BBC radio comedy show, _I’m Sorry, I’ll Read That Again_ featured a recurring character called Grimbling, a very put-upon servant, played by Bill Oddie. Again, a somewhat unhappy character. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/10 "2013-07-13T03:07:04Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > …but I [h]ave this nagging feeling, quite possibly wrong, that _Grindle_ may have been a term or name for a cat in the 18th century. Prolly tabby.\* Perhaps you’re thinking of _brindle_. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/11 "2013-07-13T09:57:06Z")
Until maybe 7 years ago there was a second hand bookshop in Edinburgh called _Old Grindle’s Bookshop_ but I have no idea where the owner got the name. Maybe it was a literary reference to Grendal, or it might have been his own name. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/12 "2013-07-13T10:24:42Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Perhaps you’re thinking of _brindle_. Not a term usually applied to cats - [Brindle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brindle) ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/13 "2013-07-14T22:54:26Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Even people who might not have read Beowulf may have been familiar with a few of the characters and ideas because they heard someone else mention them. Surely in any sort of city environment you’re going to have some people who are very well read who interact on a daily basis with other people in the community. > > Also, Beowulf written down in Old English _a thousand years ago_ and may have been part of an older oral tradition, and there are plenty of Modern English translations available and probably quite a few non-English versions too, so it’s not like you have to be a PhD of Anglo-Saxon Classics to find out for yourself who Grendel is. It’s probably more likely that the knowledge comes through exposure to a modern translation than to oral knowledge passed down over centuries and centuries of parents telling bedtime stories to kids and then the kids tell the same story. If there is serious evidence that your MIL is in possession of an independent oral tradition of Beowulf, academics are going to want to interview her and publish a few dozen papers on her. > > To make an analogy, I’ve never actually read Moby Dick but I know it’s about this guy and a whale. Yeah, I’m pretty sure she’s not in possession of the actual story! I doubt she’s ever heard of Beowulf. That’s why I only asked whether the \*phrase \*could’ve been handed down, dislocated from the story itself. My vague mental image was along the lines of: back in the 11th century, when Beowulf is one of the cool water-cooler stories, someone over from England tells it to someone in Dublin, and it gets around. Someone uses the phrase ‘a face like Grindle’, and that sticks in the collective vocabulary long after the story itself has been forgotten, and ends up with my mother-in-law. Again, I’m not saying it’s likely - just wondering whether it’s at all possible. Mrs Grundy is a possibility, and so is Educating Archie (I think that’s probably the most likely, and I’ll ask her about it), but I think anything later than that is out - she remembers hearing the phrase during her childhood, in the 50s. About the cat’s name - Grimalkin, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/14 "2013-07-14T23:03:13Z")
P.S. When you Google ‘Don’t grumble, Grimble’ with quotes, you get mostly this kind of stuff: Winchester 308 Alex vargas elephant Don\ grumble, grimble Diagram of the supraspinatus muscle in the shoulder 8018q bed Powerschool ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/15 "2013-07-15T14:58:34Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > … > > About the cat’s name - Grimalkin, maybe? Paddock calls. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/16 "2013-07-15T21:16:42Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure she’s not in possession of the actual story! I doubt she’s ever heard of Beowulf. That’s why I only asked whether the \*phrase \*could’ve been handed down, dislocated from the story itself. > > My vague mental image was along the lines of: back in the 11th century, when Beowulf is one of the cool water-cooler stories, someone over from England tells it to someone in Dublin, and it gets around. But there is no necessity for this to have happened in the 11th century, rather than in the 19th or 20th century. All it takes is for someone who has read the story to use the phrase as a conscious literary allusion, and then for it to taken up by the general population, some of whom are unfamiliar with its literary referent. I’m not disagreeing with you by the way; I do think the phrase likely refers to Grendel, and I’m sure phrases can and do survive in common use long after their significance is forgotten. For example my mother used to see “well, that beats Banaher” when something surprising happened - I’ve no idea who or what Banaher was, and I’m sure neither did she. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/17 "2013-07-15T21:31:30Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > P.S. When you Google ‘Don’t grumble, Grimble’ with quotes, you get mostly this kind of stuff: …and little gnomes stay in their homes. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/18 "2013-07-15T22:38:12Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > But there is no necessity for this to have happened in the 11th century, rather than in the 19th or 20th century. All it takes is for someone who has read the story to use the phrase as a conscious literary allusion, and then for it to taken up by the general population, some of whom are unfamiliar with its literary referent. True. I’ve only ever heard of the phrase used by people from a neighbourhood that has a name for being richer in oral tradition than in formal education - so I assumed that rather than being in general use, the phrase was neighbourhood-specific, and it was likely to have got there when Beowulf was part of popular culture rather than academia. You’re right, though: there’s no reason to assume either of those things. > [@hibernicus](#): > > For example my mother used to see “well, that beats Banaher” when something surprising happened - I’ve no idea who or what Banaher was, and I’m sure neither did she. I’ve heard that one too. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banagher)has a couple of semi-convincing explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-oral-tradition-question-a-face-like-grindle/663260/19 "2013-07-16T12:09:52Z")
Checked out _The Dictionary of Early English_ last night, and found the word “gruntle”, meaning pig-faced. Another possibility.