# Language Peeves **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598 "2010-06-10T00:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/101 "2010-06-11T21:14:34Z")
OK, I’ll bite. Things I think are wrong or just annoying: [QUOTE=college student in a seminar] Whales where basically created by God with flippers, so they never walked on land. [/quote] To say nothing of what I think of the argument, the word **basically** is a useless modifier and it doesn’t even mean what it’s trying to stand for in that context. **By and large** , … I just don’t get this one. It doesn’t make any literal sense. And the next three aren’t really wrong, but I’m still vaguely annoyed when they’re used: **Stand on line** No, you stand _in_ line. If there is a literal line on the ground, you can stand on **the** line. **Eat dinner** I started noticing this a few years ago, and it just strikes me as very odd phrasing. Took me a while to figure out why… **dinner** is something that I generally consider an event, which therefore cannot be eaten. My own hang up but what you are eating for dinner != dinner itself. **Acks** (in place of ask) I list this as one that **should** be accepted, but still drives me crazy. I just don’t agree that words must be pronounced as they’re spelled (and so many in English aren’t, anyway), and I _do_ think that languages are an oral tradition (as is being debated elsewhere on this thread). But it just sounds ugly when somebody wants to “Acks me a question.” ETA: Changed a **that** to a **which**. ::smack:: ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/102 "2010-06-11T21:32:15Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Well there is of course the David Tua “O” for “Oarsum” [incident](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaIZF8uUTtk), so perhaps the Omelettes folks are just trying to be facetious? Oh dear. "Or should I say, “Ah dear?” (And he’s such a nice looking young man, too.) At least it explains why I got those puzzling racial references. Thanks for that clarification. It didn’t sound like it was supposed to be facetious, but not being a TV watcher, perhaps this is a viral thing and the joke’s on me. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/103 "2010-06-11T21:36:41Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **indistinguishable** , you never addressed my post #14. > > What say you? I’m not sure what you want me to address. I do think some people are more eloquent than others, give more stirring speeches, make better writers, and whatever else. This has little to do with my feelings that many of the things criticized in this thread as erroneous use of language should not be considered erroneous. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/104 "2010-06-11T21:45:30Z")
I’ll answer it: > [@jimpatro](#): > > Here we go again. Accuracy is respected in everything except language. > > I don’t really buy that though. If one can say “He has a great command of the language”, then it’s also valid to say “She has weak language skills”. Superlatives are what make the world go 'round. Dismissing excellence is reprehensible. Picture a cheap styrofoam cup and a beautifully hand-crafted lacquered porcelain cup. It’s obvious which one is higher quality, and to be certain using a styro cup would be a considerable faux pas in certain situations and many people don’t like them, but it would be (to use **Indistinguishable** ’s word) erroneous to claim that the styrofoam cup is not a cup at all. Both are cups, and when it comes to the job of holding liquid, both are more than capable. Also, damn you for not having an easily nicknamed name, **Indy**. So there. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/105 "2010-06-11T21:46:02Z")
Are you skating around it or do you really just not get it? There are two ends of the scale. If someone is a great speaker then someone can be a poor speaker. If someone has mastered the English language then someone can also have failed to grasp it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/106 "2010-06-11T21:49:13Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Are you skating around it or do you really just not get it? > > There are two ends of the scale. If someone is a great speaker then someone can be a poor speaker. If someone has mastered the English language then someone can also have failed to grasp it. Yes, you’re correct, but not in the way you think. Someone who has failed to grasp English cannot make themselves understood at all to English speakers. If someone makes themselves understood, just with words you don’t like to hear, that’s not really their problem. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/107 "2010-06-11T21:49:35Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Are you skating around it or do you really just not get it? Are you asking me or **Bosstone**? Well, I agree with everything **Bosstone** ’s saying, anyway, and he’s putting it much better than me to boot. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/108 "2010-06-11T21:50:39Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I’ll answer it:Picture a cheap styrofoam cup and a beautifully hand-crafted lacquered porcelain cup. It’s obvious which one is higher quality, and to be certain using a styro cup would be a considerable faux pas in certain situations and many people don’t like them, but it would be (to use **Indistinguishable** ’s word) erroneous to claim that the styrofoam cup is not a cup at all. Both are cups, and when it comes to the job of holding liquid, both are more than capable. > > Also, damn you for not having an easily nicknamed name, **Indy**. So there. A styrofoam cup could hold wine and a porcelain cup could hold spoiled milk but your analogy would still be pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/109 "2010-06-11T21:50:58Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Also, damn you for not having an easily nicknamed name, **Indy**. So there. Well, hey, that works perfectly, and I kinda like it. Now I hope your coinage spreads… ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/110 "2010-06-11T21:51:43Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Are you asking me or **Bosstone**? Well, I agree with everything **Bosstone** ’s saying, anyway, and he’s putting it much better than me to boot. You. Answer? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/111 "2010-06-11T21:53:19Z")
My answer is that I don’t feel like I’m skating around anything and I don’t feel like I’m failing to “get” anything, other than in the sense that I don’t of course subscribe to the position I suppose I am being accused of failure to “get”. If you ask a more specific question, I can give a more focused answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/112 "2010-06-11T21:54:41Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > A styrofoam cup could hold wine and a porcelain cup could hold spoiled milk but your analogy would still be pretty weak. It’s not weak at all. The material of the cup is the dialect of the language. The ability to hold the liquid is the ability to make oneself understood. It is exactly apt and there is nothing wrong with it. In fact, let me take it farther. Suppose you have a cup made of wire mesh. This would be a completely garbled and ungrammatical language claimed to be a dialect of English. But it doesn’t hold liquid/make itself understood, and so is not a good cup/good English. But just as you never see wire mesh cups intended to hold liquid, so too do you never hear dialects of English that fail to communicate. They don’t come into practice because they simply don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/113 "2010-06-11T21:54:42Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Yes, you’re correct, but not in the way you think. Someone who has failed to grasp English cannot make themselves understood at all to English speakers. If someone makes themselves understood, just with words you don’t like to hear, that’s not really their problem. It is their problem. If they are speaking to me then I can make an assessment on their abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/114 "2010-06-11T21:54:48Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I’ve been conscious of the English language and it’s usage. No comment. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/115 "2010-06-11T21:56:30Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > It is their problem. If they are speaking to me then I can make an assessment on their abilities. The only assessment you are making is whether or not they are speaking in the correct register you believe they should be speaking in. You are pointing at a styrofoam cup and saying that it has no place at your table. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/116 "2010-06-11T21:58:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It’s not weak at all. The material of the cup is the dialect of the language. The ability to hold the liquid is the ability to make oneself understood. It is exactly apt and there is nothing wrong with it. > > In fact, let me take it farther. Suppose you have a cup made of wire mesh. This would be a completely garbled and ungrammatical language claimed to be a dialect of English. But it doesn’t hold liquid/make itself understood, and so is not a good cup/good English. But just as you never see wire mesh cups intended to hold liquid, so too do you never hear dialects of English that fail to communicate. They don’t come into practice because they simply don’t work. Okay, the liquid is the language. The vessel is the speaker. Whether the person is a dapper businessman (porcelain cup) or a homeless person (styrofoam cup) they both may be very eloquent speakers. They both may have mastered the English language. That is not what you meant but that is how your analogy works. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/117 "2010-06-11T22:00:45Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > The only assessment you are making is whether or not they are speaking in the correct register you believe they should be speaking in. You are pointing at a styrofoam cup and saying that it has no place at your table. Wouldn’t go that far but I wouldn’t, say, hire that person. I’d be more interested in someone who is sharp and respects excellence in all they do. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/118 "2010-06-11T22:02:28Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Nope. Neither is closer. > > The name comes from a name in the Nahuatl language, _Mēxihcah_, pronounced may-SHEE’-ka’ [meːˈʃiʔkaʔ] (the first syllable has the vowel sound of “May” but without the -y offglide). The Mēxihcah people were the tribe native to Tenochtitlán and Tlatelolco (present-day Mexico City). The letter \ in Medieval Spanish was used to represent the “sh” phoneme /ʃ/ (as it still does in Portuguese). But during the 16th century in Castilian Spanish the pronunciation of this phoneme shifted to a “kh” or “h” sound ( or [h]). The spelling with \ remained, although a variant spelling _Méjico_ has been sometimes used in Spain to make the pronunciation more intelligible for modern Spanish speakers, since the use of \ for that phoneme is long obsolete. Mhmm. Guess it depends on how you define “closer”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/119 "2010-06-11T22:03:01Z")
I mostly agree with you, Bosstone, except that I _do_ think that some dialects, or at least vocabulary semantical choices, are _better_ at communicating some ideas than others. For instance, the semantics in which “literally” can mean “figuratively”, but also sometimes means “literally”. If you use “literally” in both ways, then you will do a worse job at communicating your ideas than someone who does not. Of course, you can make up for this by being better at communicating this distinction using body language and tone of voice and context, but all else being equal, you are choosing to use language in an imprecise way, one that does have the actual potential for miscommunication. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598/120 "2010-06-11T22:08:31Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Okay, the liquid is the language. The vessel is the speaker. > Whether the person is a dapper businessman (porcelain cup) or a homeless person (styrofoam cup) they both may be very eloquent speakers. They both may have mastered the English language. That is not what you meant but that is how your analogy works. No, not at all. You’re forcibly changing the analogy rather than trying to understand what I’m saying. As I said, the vessel is the _dialect_, or register if you prefer. I can drink out of a styro cup as easily as a porcelain, and I can talk shit with my bros just as well as I can engage in pompous and overly-correct elocution in front of a group of accomplished scholars. I have no trouble being understood using either register (holding liquid using either kind of cup). The worst offense I might commit is using a styro cup when I should be using porcelain, but that doesn’t mean the bottom is suddenly going to fall out of the styro. > [@jimpatro](#): > > Wouldn’t go that far but I wouldn’t, say, hire that person. I’d be more interested in someone who is sharp and respects excellence in all they do. In fact, you are going that far. You don’t want a styrofoam cup on your table, and you don’t want to hire someone who speaks, say, West Coast surfer slang in the office. It is _exactly_ the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-peeves/542598.md?page=7)