# Languages: Curious details you find interesting and who sets the rules **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2021, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197 "2021-11-30T08:06:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/1 "2021-11-30T08:06:43Z")
Continuing the discussion from [Pronunciation of non-English words in old movies](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/39): Vering away from the discussion on non-English words in old movies: Yes, I believe German would benefit from an official institution with state backing for the setting of the rules concerning the German language. Like the _Académie Française_ or the _Real Academia de la Lengua Española_ indeed. This institution should not be profit oriented, should receive state funding, work scientifically and should be democratic. Because a private enterprise like the Duden Verlag pretends to set the rules, but their job should not be normative, just descriptive. Still they change the rules on orthography and expect them to be applied in official texts, state exams, university papers… you name it. Even quiz shows where huge amounts of money are at stake use them as criterion for right or wrong. I dispute their right to do so. I know it is futile, but it is my [opinion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c). That can lead to something even more arrogant: the Verein für Deutsche Sprache (VDS), who, despite being only a reactionary private club with no legitimation whatsoever, declares every year what they arbitrarily choose to be the word of the year, the young people’s word of the year (despite their members being on average 104 years old), the un-word of the year (yes, they claim they can spot un-words) and then get coverage on national TV and in the press like they had the authority do so. Absurd. It is simply a scam. Claiming to have an authority you have not is what I call appropriation. Some **privately** published English dictionaries back me up on that definition. And now for the curious linguistic factoid of the day: in German the words _Unikum, Universum, Gott_ and _Unikat_ can form a plural. _Gottseibeiuns_ can’t. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/2 "2021-11-30T09:24:22Z")
Is it Duden Verlag or the Verein für Deutsche Sprache which decrees that _Gottseibeiuns_ can’t be pluralized? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/3 "2021-11-30T10:16:39Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I believe German would benefit from an official institution with state backing for the setting of the rules concerning the German language. Why, exactly? It’s obviously possible that standards of _literacy_ may vary over time, but in general standards of education have improved rather than declined. As for the spoken language - there’s no evidence supporting the persistent fallacy that language is somehow in decline, or that any language is has ever required _any_ prescriptive authority (whether self-appointed or a formal institution) in order to flourish. All the _real_ rules of any language arise by a combination of instinct and spontaneous consensus-forming in the community of speakers. These true rules are never disputed and so universally and unconsciously followed that they are rarely even articulated, except when the rules vary among dialects. There is certainly more to style and elegance in language than the generative rules that govern the formation of grammatically valid sentences, but the minor aspects of usage that prescriptivists agonize over are almost invariably superficial details. Prescriptive committees don’t foster style and elegance. Language variation has be used to reinforce rigid social hierarchy, and as an expression of base tribalism and supremacism, to cite a recent example: [Language Log » Rachel Jeantel’s language in the Zimmerman trial](https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=5161) An ethically mature society embraces diversity, and it seems to me that we should apply this principle no less to language. We should celebrate the diversity of language rather than seeking to legitimize misguided prescriptivist norms with official institutions. Human language is a remarkable phenomenon: we can celebrate its diversity and appreciate its beauty with complete confidence that _the rules will look after themselves_, as they have done spontaneously throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/4 "2021-11-30T10:45:45Z")
I don’t believe we disagree: when I wrote that the Duden Verlag should be descriptive and not prescriptive I was not implying that a state academy should proceed in any other way. But with democratic state control, and not profit oriented, like a private publisher must be. Thus, with state funding. And where there is funding there should be oversight. ETA: I wanted to argue that a state academy, properly run, would be much better than the Duden Verlag. They are prescriptive and I dispute their authority to be. But they get away with it in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/5 "2021-11-30T11:11:27Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I don’t believe we disagree: when I wrote that the Duden Verlag should be descriptive and not prescriptive… a state academy, properly run, would be much better than the Duden Verlag. They are prescriptive and I dispute their authority… I got that, but if I think flat-Earthism is wrong, my reaction is to debunk and ridicule flat-Earthism, not to set up a state academy of flat-Earthism! The idea of language academies is closely tied to misguided notions of linguistic purity, and it’s not clear to me what you think such an academy will do other than to prescribe norms. You cite the model of the _Académie Française_ which was set up explicitly to purge the language of impurity. I don’t speak German so I’m not familiar with your dictionaries - publishing a good descriptivist dictionary would be a worthwhile endeavor, if none exists. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/6 "2021-11-30T11:32:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > An ethically mature society embraces diversity, and it seems to me that we should apply this principle no less to language. We should celebrate the diversity of language rather than seeking to legitimize misguided prescriptivist norms with official institutions. German is a pluricentric language that was only recently standardized. For pedagogical purposes it’s good to answer the question “what is German and how do we teach it?” It’s good for second-language learners, it’s good for people who (until recently) lived in such remote dialects that Standard German was nearly a foreign language. I will never understand why, when someone starts a thread about language rules, there’s always someone(s) ready to swoop in and give the same tired lecture about “prescriptivism is always bad”. It’'s so predictable and tired. /rant ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/7 "2021-11-30T11:41:16Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I will never understand why, when someone starts a thread about language rules, there’s always someone(s) ready to swoop in and give the same tired lecture about “prescriptivism is always bad”. Because the point that _most_ prescriptivism is misconceived and can be socially divisive clearly hasn’t got through to the great majority of people. Of any topic, the most reliable way to get thousands of responses to a thread is to ask people what _annoys_ them about language usage. Parochial peeving about variations from the dialect of your own time and place is a national pastime - at best an ignorant waste of energy, at worst base tribalism and supremacism. [List of language regulators - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators) > Language academies are motivated by, or closely associated with, [linguistic purism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism) and [prestige](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_(sociolinguistics)), and typically publish [prescriptive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) [dictionaries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionaries),[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators#cite_note-1) which purport to officiate and prescribe the meaning of words and pronunciations. It’s certainly _possible_ for a language academy to be scientific, and to serve some worthwhile purpose as you describe. But it’s hardly unreasonable to suspect otherwise, and to question exactly what it entails. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/8 "2021-11-30T12:14:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Of any topic, the most reliable way to get thousands of responses to a thread is to ask people what _annoys_ them about language usage. So what? Who made you the prescriber of suitable thread responses? You’re so committed to this threadshit of policing wrongthink in a language you don’t even know, that you overlooked the OP was criticizing a prescriptivist institution and encouraging a more descriptivist approach. > [@Riemann](#): > > Parochial peeving about variations from the dialect of your own time and place is a national pastime - at best an ignorant waste of energy, at worst base tribalism and supremacism. Nobody’s doing that here, so what are _you_ doing? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/9 "2021-11-30T12:25:42Z")
OP advocates a state language academy. He advocates descriptivism, but his model is the ultra-prescriptivist _Académie Française_, which contradicts that. So let’s get back to the topic, shall we? My question was - what does OP envision the language academy will do? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/10 "2021-11-30T12:32:45Z")
Do you know any other, never mind a better source than the Duden Verlag? No? That is the problem I am trying to point at. > [@Riemann](#): > > You cite the model of the _Académie Française_ which was set up explicitly to purge the language of impurity. > [@Riemann](#): > > It’s certainly _possible_ for a language academy to be scientific, and to serve some worthwhile purpose as you describe. But it’s hardly unreasonable to suspect otherwise, and to question exactly what it entails. It would not be the first time things are done differently on both sides of the Rhine. I would like to believe that respecting Germany’s federal structure and including Swizzerland and Austria in this academy would go some way to take your worries into account. > [@Riemann](#): > > What does OP envision the language academy will do? Describe, for Godott’s sake! Reflect the reality, explain its historic roots, document regionalisms, elucidate dubious ethymologies, shame the French and the Spaniards by making it better than them and behead those who infinitives split. And create a couple of comfortably padded chairs with good salaries. Open to public scrutiny and critique, something a [private publisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliographisches_Institut) is not and cannot be (because of trade secrets, and lawyers, and lost the keys, and it was so long ago… you know?). ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/11 "2021-11-30T13:07:19Z")
Some random thoughts after eight hours of sleep: You may have noticed in the other thread that when I recommended establishing a German equivalent to the _Académie Française_ I did so with a wink. Such institutions make some contribution to uniformity and thus ease of communication, but they’re far from all-powerful. They might be able to dictate the standards of official documents, but they have little effect beyond that. People will still speak the way they want. I remember how the _AF_ once tried to ban the use of “radar” in favor of a French phrase that translated as “radio-based ranging” (which is what “radar” actually means). Fifty or sixty years later, the people who operate such sets still use the term “radar,” SFAIK. (As does everybody else.) I currently work in publishing, which does require some standardization. However, the rules you follow are usually set by whatever style guide your employer uses, and these vary considerably. Outside of journalism, I find the best way to judge the skill of a writer is how well he or she deviates from commonly accepted standards in establishing a personal style. (Read _ **Look Homeward, Angel** _ and you’ll see what I mean.) A great deal also depends on the register in which you write. To be able to vary your style to suit your intended audience without becoming a parody of yourself is another sign of a good writer (especially when it comes to translations). ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/12 "2021-11-30T13:12:45Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > You may have noticed in the other thread that when I recommended establishing a German equivalent to the _Académie Française_ I did so with a wink. Oh, yes, I did, but it did not carry over here well. **Riemann** did not see your wink in the other thread, it seems, and has given the debate a much more serious spin than I intended. I was also continuing a side argument with **EinsteinsHund** about the Duden and its authority, look how that has ended! (And EinsteinHund is not even here yet!) Ah, well… for fear of a hijack I went into a quagmire. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/13 "2021-11-30T13:17:39Z")
Speaking in favor of standardization, I can tell you from personal experience that it’s essential when teaching English as a foreign language. You can explain the use of “ain’t” to students once they reach a certain level, but not before. Such information overload simply confuses them. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/14 "2021-11-30T13:39:42Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I remember how the _AF_ once tried to ban the use of “radar” And I remember how the Spanish Real Academia tried to impose that the word _whisky_ be spelled _güisqui_ in Spanish. Because “W” is not really a [Spanish](https://dle.rae.es/w?m=form) letter. You can imagine how that ended: today _whisky_ is a recognized anglizism. It may be used. It is [defined](https://dle.rae.es/whisky?m=form) as _güisqui_. And güisqui is defined as: 1. m. Licor alcohólico que se obtiene del grano de algunas plantas, destilando un compuesto amiláceo en estado de fermentación. Did I hear you bang your head against the table? Wait for [güisquería](https://dle.rae.es/g%C3%BCisquer%C3%ADa?m=form), the place where _güisqui_ and other alcoholic beverages are served. ¡Salud! > [@terentii](#): > > (Read _ **Look Homeward, Angel** _ and you’ll see what I mean.) Would you recommend the edited version or the “restored” version? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/15 "2021-11-30T14:16:09Z")
It could be argued though that English would benefit from _some_ steering. I’m not saying one agency that just lays down the law. But just some agenc(-ies) that suggest things like spelling simplification, and have enough sway that some of their suggestions catch on, because English idiosyncratic spelling does seem to be a hindrance to learning English, for no gain whatsoever. It’s not gonna happen, but it would be good if it did. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/16 "2021-11-30T14:30:28Z")
I’m pretty sure read it in the original version. I imagine a lot of the author’s personal style would be lost in editing. I once had a Russian girlfriend who read _ **Les Misérables** _ when she was a child. I wish now I had asked her which language it was in, and if it was abridged. I read it as an adult, but in an abridged English translation. I gather a lot of the story was lost in the retelling. Clarity is the most important thing in writing, regardless of your register. Faulkner, who uses Southern dialect a lot, is just as clear in his prose as Hemingway and Steinbeck are in theirs. I occasionally help my ex-wife, who is also an EFL teacher (but not a native English speaker), write instructional materials. I sometimes laugh out loud when I read her test questions, since it’s often not clear who does what to whom, or where they do it. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/17 "2021-11-30T14:56:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It could be argued though that English would benefit from _some_ steering. > > I’m not saying one agency that just lays down the law. > > But just some agenc(-ies) that suggest things like spelling simplification, and have enough sway that some of their suggestions catch on, because English idiosyncratic spelling does seem to be a hindrance to learning English, for no gain whatsoever. > > It’s not gonna happen, but it would be good if it did. Such attempts have been made. Probably the one most notable was by Benjamin Franklin: > **[Benjamin Franklin’s Phonetic Alphabet](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/benjamin-franklins-phonetic-alphabet-58078802/)** > > One of the founding father's more quixotic quests was to create a new alphabet. No Q included Being based in Pennsylvania, Franklin also proposed making German the official language of the United States, but that’s another story. (As an aside, I find it amusing that the British pronounce “Don Quixote” as “Don KWIKS-oat,” as is sanctioned by the BBC.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/18 "2021-11-30T15:02:17Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Such attempts have been made. Probably the one most notable was by Benjamin Franklin: Well, I’d say the more notable one was [Webster’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform#19th_century) because it indeed caught on (in the US). It doesn’t seem feasible to happen again though, even within one country. Since English is now a worldwide lingua franca, if, say, Australia were to reform their spelling everyone there would still need to learn both forms. As it is, I think British spelling is slowly dying, which is overall a good thing (though it’s _aluminium_ from now until forever 😡) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/19 "2021-11-30T15:12:45Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@terentii](#): > > > > Such attempts have been made. Probably the one most notable was by Benjamin Franklin: > > Well, I’d say the more notable one was [Webster’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform#19th_century) because it indeed caught on (in the US). Some things catch on, some don’t… [https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=81](https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=81) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/languages-curious-details-you-find-interesting-and-who-sets-the-rules/955197/20 "2021-11-30T15:52:17Z")
Darn! Another good language blog! How am I to read them all? And still going strong with several recent posts (loving the one about the [skipped variant name](https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831#more-52831) for the latest Covid mutation 😂 Xi-riously!) after so many years.