# LAPD as judge, jury, and executioner **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 9, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787 "2013-02-09T15:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/161 "2013-02-11T17:04:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It was 5 am, so it probably wasn’t quite as obvious that the truck that got lit up wasn’t grey. While intent transfers (eg., criminal intent to kill one person is sufficient to justify a murder charge if you kill the wrong one), the rules for attempted murder are a bit different. > > In any event, it usually takes more than a day or two for a grand jury to be empanelled.. So? Did the victims in any way (other than being human) resemble Dorner? No. Were they acting suspiciously? No? The fact that Dorner drove a truck does not give the LAPD free license to riddle any truck (and it’s occupants) with bullets. OTOH, you are right, when the shooters aren’t flight risks, an indictment is not something that is rushed into. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/162 "2013-02-11T18:12:25Z")
This whole thing is starting to look like a “B” cop movie. This is all we need now: One of the “good cops” with LAPD actually knows everything, and knows that Dorner is being framed. He’s putting together all the facts. However, one of the bad guys interrupts him just as he’s downloading the proof onto a USB. He’s killed by the dirty cops - and sadly, he was just one week away from retirement. Meanwhile, Dorner is still on the lam, but he has met a plucky but beautiful computer programmer who believes in his innocence. The LAPD continue on their violent spree, killing innocent citizens in their quest to kill the hero. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/163 "2013-02-11T18:18:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d reserve judgment on things like that, you have no available evidence to suggest he was framed. The LAPD doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. What do you do when the gang wears blue? > [@](#): > > Not sure how much race has to do with it. Most big city police departments these days have a lot of black officers and a lot of black officers in leadership positions. There is a racist culture there. A lot of it is springs from the gang wars of the 1980’s and 1990’s but racism is fairly well tolerated at the LAPD from what I can tell. > [@](#): > > If Dorner saw inappropriate behavior and reported it, and was then retaliated against, it’s because he broke the “code of silence” endemic to some of our more troubled police departments in the country and probably not because he’s black. I think that being black makes a difference at organizations like the LAPD. It may not be dispositive but I think it makes a difference. Their reputation doesn’t earn them a whole lot of credibility on that issue. > [@](#): > > I don’t like to engage in police bashing because I think it’s childish and stupid, and I’ve never seen any reliable evidence to suggest a large portion of police are corrupt. The code of silence used to be used to protect police officers from having their lives derailed by harmless error. At some point the code of silence was extended to protecting dirty cops and abusive cops. And I agree that this was probably the bigger factor in his dismissal IF he was railroaded but being black and relatively new makes you an easier target. > [@](#): > > He murdered two people who were not in any way affiliated with LAPD, so I think it’s inappropriate to even suggest his actions could be justified. I wasn’t trying to jsutify his actions. Killing some innocent woman because you think her father is an unethical, immoral asshole is evil. But it seems to be focusing everyone’s attention on the corruption problem at the LAPD. I think Dorner is a dead man walkling and I think Dorner knows it. I hope that we can salvage some good from this tragedy by cleaning up the LAPD. I still remember watching LAOPD driving through my neighborhood (full of looters) in LA on their way to form a human ring of cops around beverly hills. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/164 "2013-02-11T18:20:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So? Did the victims in any way (other than being human) resemble Dorner? No. Were they acting suspiciously? No? The fact that Dorner drove a truck does not give the LAPD free license to riddle any truck (and it’s occupants) with bullets. Even if Dorner had been _in_ the truck they wouldn’t have had free license to riddle it with bullets. I’m just saying their error in misidentifying the truck wasn’t \*quite \*as awful as it appears at first blush. Still pretty damn awful, of course, and no matter what else happens the City of Los Angeles is going to be paying out the nose for this one. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/165 "2013-02-11T18:23:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I wasn’t trying to jsutify his actions. Killing some innocent woman because you think her father is an unethical, immoral asshole is evil. But it seems to be focusing everyone’s attention on the corruption problem at the LAPD. > > I think Dorner is a dead man walkling and I think Dorner knows it. I hope that we can salvage some good from this tragedy by cleaning up the LAPD. > > I still remember watching LAOPD driving through my neighborhood (full of looters) in LA on their way to form a human ring of cops around beverly hills. Thanks. I was starting to lose faith. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/166 "2013-02-11T18:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > the police shot several innocent people while trying to stop a murderer No, the police shot several innocent people. Period. They don’t get to dress it up as ‘stopping a murderer’, when it was an elderly, innocent, old woman doing her job. No murderer in evidence for miles around. They didn’t know that, you say? It’s their damn job to know that before firing on innocents. It’s only ’ stopping a murderer ', when, y’know, they actually STOP a murderer. This was attempted murder by people who are entrusted with guns and power because we trust them to act in accordance with both their training and the law. They did neither. I feel people in LA have every right on earth to be more afraid of the police than Dorner. And their own actions have only made it clearer that at least part of what he said was true, you shouldn’t trust them. That they protect their own? These cops have been given a paid vacation. If you or I did what they did, we’d be in jail right now. Cops do appear to many people to be above the law, and all about protecting each other regardless of the truth. Both those cops still have their jobs. I cannot think of any other job where you could fuck up this large and still have a job, and a paid vacation to boot! ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/167 "2013-02-11T18:36:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think Dorner is a dead man walkling and I think Dorner knows it. That was kind of the point in my OP: I don’t believe the LAPD intends to bring Dorner in alive. The fact that they shot two women and one white man without any sort of instruction or warning suggests that they don’t have any intention of giving Dorner an opportunity to surrender peacefully. The fact that the two women and the one white man look nothing like Dorner - and the fact that that their pickup trucks looked nothing like Dorner’s truck - suggest an impressive degree of incompetence, independent of their malice. And they are already defending the officers involved in these shootings, \*even before an investigation can be done. \* [url=]From here, regarding the second shooting: > [@LA Times](#): > > A department spokesman said Saturday that the shooting is still under investigation. In a statement to The Times, the department said: "The circumstances of the incident known to the responding officers would have led a reasonable officer under normal circumstances — and these were far from normal circumstances — to believe that fellow officers were being shot at and that the vehicle traveling toward them posed a serious risk. > > “In the split seconds available to them,” the statement continued, “action was appropriate to intervene and stop the actions of the driver of that vehicle.” To paraphrase: “we’re looking into it, but we’re already certain that the officers did everything by the book.” :rolleyes: if they wanted to have any hope of inspiring the public’s confidence, they should have just stopped talking after they said “the shooting is still under investigation.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/168 "2013-02-11T18:43:52Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > No, the police shot several innocent people. Period. They don’t get to dress it up as ‘stopping a murderer’, when it was an elderly, innocent, old woman doing her job. No murderer in evidence for miles around. For some reason you erased the word “trying” from that paraphrase of that post and didn’t acknowledge the previous sentence where I said they fucked up royally or the bit afterward where I said there should be consequences. > [@](#): > > If you or I did what they did, we’d be in jail right now. True. We wouldn’t be allowed to dress up like cops either. What’s up with that? > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > That was kind of the point in my OP: I don’t believe the LAPD intends to bring Dorner in alive. The fact that they shot two women and one white man without any sort of instruction or warning suggests that they don’t have any intention of giving Dorner an opportunity to surrender peacefully. If he contacts them and says he wants to surrender peacefully he might be able to do that. In the meantime he’s shot a couple of cops and says he wants to kill more of them, so there’s only so much you can expect them to do in terms of giving him an opportunity to surrender unless it’s somehow obvious he’s not a threat when they find him. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/169 "2013-02-11T18:51:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If he contacts them and says he wants to surrender peacefully he might be able to do that. In the meantime he’s shot a couple of cops and says he wants to kill more of them, so there’s only so much you can expect them to do in terms of giving him an opportunity to surrender unless it’s somehow obvious he’s not a threat when they find him. Hard to miss the backhanded execution justification. D-bag. ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/170 "2013-02-11T18:53:31Z")
The one million dollar award will backfire. It shows desperation and a call to vigilantes. Just what LA needs right now. Am I the only one that thinks this is a bad move? He might just give info leading to his arrest/shootout to an anti-cop organization just before is final blaze of glory. Then they will take the award to further is fight. Citizens could mistake identities in an attempt to win the lottery. And probally tons of false leads are coming in because of it diluting the trail even further. It is to much money. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/171 "2013-02-11T19:11:18Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Hard to miss the backhanded execution justification. D-bag. “D-bag?” Now I’m starting to understand the problem: you’re a frat boy who’s mad at the cops 'cause he got busted for an open container. 's cool, brah. Anyway I’m trying to be practical here. The preference is always that a suspect is taken alive. If he tells them he’s surrendering or they surprise him somehow, great. In the meantime, he’s a well-armed sniper who has killed three people and he says he wants to kill a bunch more cops before he’s done. So I can understand that they’re going to treat him as an extremely deadly threat unless it’s obvious he isn’t one. Being cops means they’re obliged to find this guy and put themselves in a very dangerous situation. It doesn’t mean they have to give him a chance to shoot them. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/172 "2013-02-11T19:26:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So I can understand that they’re going to treat him as an extremely deadly threat unless it’s obvious he isn’t one. Being cops means they’re obliged to find this guy and put themselves in a very dangerous situation. It doesn’t mean they have to give him a chance to shoot them. I think that if Dorner were to surrender by walking naked down a 6-lane wide street with his hands in the air and hundreds of news cameras filming the event, he’d still get shot by a cop and the cop would suffer no ill consequences. In fact, the cop will be lauded as a model officer and the “incident” would be described only as “unfortunate”. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/173 "2013-02-11T19:27:02Z")
Sorry for dropping the ‘trying’, but I’m not seeing how it makes any difference. Shooting innocent old ladies, is attempted murder when I do it. I don’t get excused for saying, " but I was trying to stop ???". you know, unless there is actual evidence for that. No one asked about dressing up as cops, don’t know what you’re on about there, sorry. It’s true, of course, just not pertinent. So what? It doesn’t excuse giving cops a ‘benefit of the doubt’ that they didn’t bother to give the innocent people they shot down in the street. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/174 "2013-02-11T19:29:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “D-bag?” Now I’m starting to understand the problem: you’re a frat boy who’s mad at the cops 'cause he got busted for an open container. 's cool, brah. Oh there’s a problem here, really? Besides your lack of intellectual honesty and smarmy “hard to miss” tone? Ok, thanks for that. I’ll try to keep it in mind the next time you are a spineless asshole trying to play sides in a conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/175 "2013-02-11T19:31:37Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > To paraphrase: “we’re looking into it, but we’re already certain that the officers did everything by the book.” :rolleyes: if they wanted to have any hope of inspiring the public’s confidence, they should have just stopped talking after they said “the shooting is still under investigation.” :smack: Really. They might as well have come out and said “We’re going to get that MoFo, and we don’t really give a shit how many of you citizen pukes we have to kill before we get him. So keep your heads down, cause we’re out there shootin’.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/176 "2013-02-11T19:33:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Sorry for dropping the ‘trying’, but I’m not seeing how it makes any difference. No apology for the other dishonest edits. OK then. It matters because it’s probably not attempted murder if you’re trying to stop a killer. I realize they completely fucked it up and said so, but legally it makes a difference and it might matter ethically, too. > [@](#): > > Shooting innocent old ladies, is attempted murder when I do it. How often do you do it, by the way? > [@](#): > > I don’t get excused for saying, " but I was trying to stop ???". you know, unless there is actual evidence for that. Right, because you’re not a cop. You’re not authorized to go after criminals and try to stop them. Cops are. I think we can take it for granted the cops were trying to get this guy unless you’re saying maybe they shot at these people for fun. I don’t think that’s the case. They were trying to stop a killer and completely screwed it up. That’s a little different than you shooting up an old lady’s car because you’re bored or whatever other reason. > [@](#): > > No one asked about dressing up as cops, don’t know what you’re on about there, sorry. If it’s unfair that the cops can shoot at people and you can’t, surely it’s unfair that they can dress like cops and you can’t. It’s a total double-standard! > [@Pedro](#): > > Oh there’s a problem here, really? Broseph, don’t worry about it! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/177 "2013-02-11T19:34:43Z")
> [@fifty-six](#): > > The one million dollar award will backfire. > It shows desperation and a call to vigilantes. Just what LA needs right now. > > Am I the only one that thinks this is a bad move? > > He might just give info leading to his arrest/shootout to an anti-cop organization just before is final blaze of glory. Then they will take the award to further is fight. > > Citizens could mistake identities in an attempt to win the lottery. And probally tons of false leads are coming in because of it diluting the trail even further. > > It is to much money. In my imagination, the award was approved by a guy in a fancy suite in a tall office tower. He was stroking a pet lizard when he gave this order to his minions: “Get the word on the street. A million dollars to whoever whacks Dorner.” “But boss, that will cause chaos! Anarchy!” “I DON’T CARE! JUST DO IT!” “Yes Boss!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/178 "2013-02-11T19:38:54Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > What a douchebag thing to say. You can go fuck yourself. [Moderating] Telling other posters to fuck themselves is a violation of the Pit’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/179 "2013-02-11T19:44:04Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > At least they hit center of mass…of the tailgate. The NYC cops couldn’t even do that about half the time in the Sean Bell killing. In 2006 they fired 50 shots at a car stopped across the street from them, hitting the car only 25 times. Unfortunately they killed Bell, the guy about to be married the next day and wounded one of the other three guys. They almost killed a fellow cop on the walkway between the LIRR station at Jamaca Queens and the JFK Express. That was about a half mile away, IIRC. Just last year they wounded eight passers-by near the Empire State Building in a shoot out in which the bad guy was killed. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787/180 "2013-02-11T19:46:30Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I think that if Dorner were to surrender by walking naked down a 6-lane wide street with his hands in the air and hundreds of news cameras filming the event, he’d still get shot by a cop and the cop would suffer no ill consequences. In fact, the cop will be lauded as a model officer and the “incident” would be described only as “unfortunate”. You overstate the case. He’d die in his cell by suicide within 24 hours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lapd-as-judge-jury-and-executioner/649787.md?page=10)