# Large earthquake in Northeast Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 11, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279 "2011-03-11T06:10:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/582 "2011-03-17T20:35:27Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “I don’t know any other way to say it, but this is like suicide fighters in a war,” said Keiichi Nakagawa, associate professor of the Department of Radiology at University of Tokyo Hospital. > > Perhaps the word he’s looking for would be “kamikaze”? Yeah, that was coined by the Japa---- :smack: > > Right. I’m pretty sure he meant “there’s no other way to describe it”, not “I’m looking for the right word.” Also, the common Japanese term for the suicide attacks in WWII is _Tokko-Tai_, though _Kamikaze Tokko-Tai_ is also understood. But if you just say “Kamikaze,” it means “divine wind” and it’s not a specific reference to suicide attacks. I think most Japanese people don’t know that “Kamikaze” has become an English word that means aerial suicide attack. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/583 "2011-03-17T20:44:23Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I think most Japanese people don’t know that “Kamikaze” has become an English word that means aerial suicide attack. It was named after a storm that destroyed an invading fleet, was it not? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/584 "2011-03-17T21:21:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You said it couldn’t go full Chernobyl and I simply pointed out it can. No, it _can’t_. There is no way for the Fukushima reactors to “blow up” like Chernobyl did. > [@](#): > > They’re not just dealing with radiation problems inside the plant, they’re dealing with it outside the plant. Yes, we know that. No one is denying that. It has been acknowledged that _at the plant itself_ the situation is hazardous to human life. But the vast majority of people in this world, including you and me, including most of the people in Japan even, are nowhere near close enough to be in any sort of danger. > [@](#): > > The cores are leaking and they can’t get water to them. No, the cores are not “leaking”. Where do you get this from? I want to know so I can bitchslap whoever scared you so bad. _At most_ there is some coolant water leaking out of the primary confinement into the secondary confinement, which is the sort of thing for which secondary confinement exists. The reactors/fuel/whatever are not maliciously oozing out as some sort of atomic lava. Even if it DID, there are structures underneath the reactor to catch such a blob of core magma. It’s not going to burn through the basement, into the Earth, and keep going to the other side of the planet. It didn’t even do that at Chernobyl which really was massively worse than this, even at Chernobyl it stopped in the sub-levels of the plant. It’s not that anyone is lying here - part of the uncertainty is that no one is going to go into that area to have a look right now. That _would_ be suicide. They’re having to determine what’s going on remotely. When things cool down sufficiently they’ll probably send in a robot of some sort to take pictures and they we’ll know what exactly happened. And I’m sure half the world will scream OMIGOD! OMIGOD! and the other half will say “huh - not so bad as I thought.” > [@](#): > > How you don’t grasp the seriousness of this I don’t understand. Why you, a normally sane poster, are scared spitless of this I don’t understand. > [@](#): > > If one of the 4 reactor cores blows up it’s Chernobyl. Except the reactor cores _can’t_ blow up. There may have been (probably was) some melting of the structure but with every hour the temperature keeps coming down. The _cores_ aren’t going to blow up if they haven’t by now. > [@](#): > > If one of the 4 holding pools catches fire then it will be a mess. See, this is yet another reason you don’t look credible - two of the fuel pools HAVE caught fire. More than once. That’s why we see the current radiation levels. See - the worst has _already_ happened, and the world has not ended. It sucks for the guys at the plant who got irradiated, it sucks for their families, it sucks for the people already traumatized by a massive earthquake and tsunami who then had to evacuation their homes… but YOU are not going to be personally affected. Neither am I. Nor is anyone North America, Europe, Africa, Australia… well, OK, it will probably effect our _economies_ but not our health or longevity. > [@](#): > > The difference between Chernobyl and one of these reactors exploding would be one of scale. It would still be a 20 km irradiated mess. There is no clean up in aisle 5 if this happens. You do realize that even after getting hit with a fricking _atomic bomb_ Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rebuilt on their original sites, yes? Those bombs tossed _lots_ nastier stuff into the atmosphere than Fukushima has. How about all those A-bomb tests the US, Soviets, and Chinese have done over the years? Are you glowing in the dark yet? Within 2 months any radioactive iodine tossed out will be decayed into harmlessness. Stuff like mildly radioactive water becomes harmless in _days_. The worst shit puked out by Fukushima is some cesium, which yes, will take a couple decades to decay but seriously, just don’t eat any plants that grow near the plant during that time. Your local hospital probably has more cesium in its radiation-producing/using medical devices than what’s been chucked out by Fukushima - the main difference being those medical devices are thoroughly sealed/shielded. Radiation isn’t magic, it’s not all powerful, and it’s not out to get you. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what the probability of a core explosion is since the information has been less than forthcoming but there is already elements of cesium outside the plant so it’s likely the holding pool ran dry on #4 and caught fire. This seams to be the focus of their efforts. ZERO. The chance of a “core explosion” is ZERO. The cesium is from the structure that holds and supports fuel rods. It’s indicative of a meltdown, either partial or total. It’s not being magically conjured into being. Overheated fuel rods, whether in a reactor or in a holding pool, can throw that off. That does NOT mean anything is “exploding”. Cesium is also pretty heavy, even when throw into the air it falls back to the ground rather quickly. Hence, it’s a problem _near the plant_, not half a world away. Yes, it’s a big, nasty, ugly, dangerous mess. You are still blowing this WAY out out of proportion. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/585 "2011-03-17T21:51:08Z")
Thank you so much Broomstick. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/586 "2011-03-17T22:23:51Z")
Thanks, **Broomstick**. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/587 "2011-03-17T22:55:57Z")
Ahh, sanity. Good on you, **Broomstick**. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/588 "2011-03-17T23:05:01Z")
Although, cesium can travel a long distance. There are still about 400 farms in the UK that have prohibition orders on them because of Chernobyl. These farms are all on high ground in Scotland, Wales and the Lake District. Scotland is about 1500 miles from Chernobyl. There are differences between the two incidents (Chernobyl and Fukushima): - Chernobyl was a big explosion so the cesium went higher - the cesium has only stayed around in those places because of the peaty soil which means it goes into the grass growing on it and then gets eaten by the sheep. The sheep have to be taken down off the hills and they excrete the cesium within a few days and are then safe for human consumption But does show that it can travel and note that Tokyo, a city of 35 million, is only 400 miles from Fukushima. Shanghai, a city of 20 million, is only 1200 miles from Fukushima. I don’t know what effect having cesium raining down on you would have but it doesn’t sound good and it did affect the Sami people in Scandinavia (also known as the Lapps). It seems the main effect is not so much the direct effect on human health but the effect on the farmland, the environment and the wildlife eg by contaminating water supplies and the food the animals eat - [http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/chernobyl-fallout-a-hard-rain-sami](http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/chernobyl-fallout-a-hard-rain-sami) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/589 "2011-03-18T00:30:20Z")
Your concerns are noted, however, the wind is largely blowing AWAY FROM Japan, Asia, Shanghai, etc. Meaning whatever cesium _is_ up in the air is heading more towards North America than anywhere in Asia. Of course, North America is a bleep of a long way away - it’s going to drop out of the sky and sink into the ocean long before landfall. So… in this case… almost certainly NOT an issue. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/590 "2011-03-18T00:40:55Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > From the CBC: [New power line to Fukushima plant ready](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/03/17/japan-cooling-methods.html). > > My impression is that this line is built to connect to the power lines of a competing company (not Tokyo Electric), which is why it wasn’t built before. Is this true? article states that the line will only be connected to reactor 2 because the electrical system of that reactor wasn’t damaged as much as the others. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/591 "2011-03-18T00:49:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . > > The cesium is from the structure that holds and supports fuel rods. It’s indicative of a meltdown, either partial or total. It’s not being magically conjured into being. Overheated fuel rods, whether in a reactor or in a holding pool, can throw that off. That does NOT mean anything is “exploding”. Cesium is also pretty heavy, even when throw into the air it falls back to the ground rather quickly. Hence, it’s a problem _near the plant_, not half a world away. > . The control rods are inside the reactor and cesium is outside the reactor. I’ve already quoted people saying the inner core is cracked in some of the reactors. And yes, they can explode, I don’t understand what makes you think they can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/592 "2011-03-18T01:13:22Z")
Please post a source for your assertion that 1. These cores are capable of exploding 2. The odds of the Fukushima plant cores exploding, if that is even possible. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/593 "2011-03-18T01:29:09Z")
Well, with heat and pressure, you can have an explosion. It’s not an atomic detonation type explosion, but a pressure explosion is still an explosion, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/594 "2011-03-18T02:05:29Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, with heat and pressure, you can have an explosion. It’s not an atomic detonation type explosion, but a pressure explosion is still an explosion, right? But then you (well, **Magiver** anyway) can’t say “The core is leaking!” and “it’s going to blow!” at the same time; if the core is leaking then it just can’t build up the pressure to blow up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/595 "2011-03-18T02:15:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, with heat and pressure, you can have an explosion. It’s not an atomic detonation type explosion, but a pressure explosion is still an explosion, right? Yes. The problem with these reactors was the lack of water after shut down. They generate heat for days after the control rods are set to maximum absorption (shut down). This was the crucial time period. Without coolant the inner cores began melting. Post 497 has a link regarding the breached inner cores. [This link](http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2011/03/16/japans-nuclear-crisis-the-technical-facts/) talks about the potential for a melt down and inner core explosion: \*\*These explosions are not enough to breach the concrete and stainless steel shell of the inner core but the detection of caesium-137 and iodine-131 indicates that at least part of the fuel rods have been exposed and damaged. (Water levels inside the core are unknown because the gauges have failed, itself indicating damage.) If left exposed for too long the fuel pellets melt and fall to the bottom of the core. If it continues, all the fuel melts into a pool at the bottom of the core, continues to overheat — and at some point with loss of neutron moderation in the molten pool it becomes self-accelerating — until nothing can contain it and it burns through the core, i.e. the China Syndrome. Contact with other material or any liquid, along with accumulated hydrogen will result in explosive dispersal of the highly radioactive material — not as a nuclear bomb — but a far worse kind of dirty “bomb” in terms of radioactive contamination of hundreds or thousands of square kilometres depending on prevailing winds. As time moves on the likelihood of this kind of catastrophic event becomes less and less likely because the energy released by the fuel diminishes quickly. Some experts believe the danger point for such a total meltdown has been passed but Tuesday’s events make any outside assessment very problematic. \*\* The author also goes on to describe why the spent fuel poses a greater hazard in terms of isotope longevity. \*\*Little discussed so far is that all these sites have storage pools of spent nuclear fuel. Spent fuel contains the highest level waste in the entire fuel cycle. The long-lived byproducts of uranium fission including uranium-234, neptunium-237, plutonium-238 and americium-241 are the truly nasty problematic ones because they persist for thousands of years. Caesium-137 and iodine-131 are measurable indicators of fuel pellet breakdown/contamination because they are the most volatile and will be in any steam release, deliberate or core breach. But there is also a high level of relatively short-lived radionuclides, which release lots of heat via their fast radioactive decay. So the spent fuel is kept on-site in deep pools of water for about six years before they are more amenable to transport for fuel reprocessing or long-term storage. This allows much of the short-lived elements to decay. An added dangerous ingredient in the cocktail is that these reactors use mixed-oxide (MOX) fuels, which means they have plutonium plus uranium in the fuel pellets.\*\* The author of the article does not think there was a reactor breach., It’s an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/596 "2011-03-18T02:18:59Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > But then you (well, **Magiver** anyway) can’t say “The core is leaking!” and “it’s going to blow!” at the same time; if the core is leaking then it just can’t build up the pressure to blow up. sure it can. The reason the outer cores blew is because they vented the inner cores. The vents can and did stick during these operations. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/597 "2011-03-18T02:56:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > sure it can. The reason the outer cores blew is because they vented the inner cores. The vents can and did stick during these operations. Your use of terminology suggests you don’t have a background in nuclear engineering. You might find [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1aH2-MhEko) to be an informative analogy. Heck, given the steady stream of misinformation coming from popular media, we _all_ might learn something from that video. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/598 "2011-03-18T03:10:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > \*\*[COLOR=“Blue”]If left exposed for too long the fuel pellets melt and fall to the bottom of the core. If it continues, all the fuel melts into a pool at the bottom of the core, continues to overheat — and at some point with loss of neutron moderation in the molten pool it becomes self-accelerating — until nothing can contain it and it burns through the core, i.e. the China Syndrome. The [neutron moderators](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_moderator) are an important part of what makes the whole reactor work. Without them, the fission will not become “self-accelerating.” Quite the opposite, it should taper off. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/599 "2011-03-18T03:49:50Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The [neutron moderators](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_moderator) are an important part of what makes the whole reactor work. Without them, the fission will not become “self-accelerating.” Quite the opposite, it should taper off. However they’re stored upon shutdown there is still a multi-day heat quench that requires water. The buildings didn’t explode because of media attention. They exploded because of a heat generated hydrogen buildup in the cores which was vented to the outer building. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/600 "2011-03-18T06:40:47Z")
[Interactive Before and After the Tsunami satellite photos](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter). Holy shit. My heart is breaking, looking at these images. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279/601 "2011-03-18T09:05:23Z")
Video from inside a car getting hit by the tsunami, the driver survived to tell the tale. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0zOZhd_9nec/hqdefault.jpg "Japan tsunami sweeps car off road & driver survives") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zOZhd_9nec) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-earthquake-in-northeast-japan/574279.md?page=31)