# Large Hadron Collider, Curiosity Killed the Cat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026 "2007-11-28T14:27:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/1 "2007-11-28T14:27:19Z")
When I was a boy I was very curious. I wanted to know what this stuff was that made things happen and I knew enough that if I stuck a nail into an electrical socket I would find out. I did have experience with electric fences, though unpleasant, gave me weird feelings. Well I found out, I survived, and fortunately 220 sockets were not accessible to me during that time of my life. Well, next May, scientists are going to start experimenting with the new [Hadron Collider](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider) > [@](#): > > As with previous particle accelerators, people both inside and outside the physics community have voiced concern that the LHC might trigger one of several theoretical disasters capable of destroying the Earth or even the entire Universe. This has raised controversy as to whether any such risks outweigh the potential benefits of constructing and operating the LHC…CERN has pointed out that the probability of such events is extremely small. > [@](#): > > The size of the LHC constitutes an exceptional engineering challenge with unique safety issues. I read somewhere elso that temperatures will exceed that of the sun. I don’t see any tangible benefit to mankind other than gaining knowledge. Is that good enough to put the globe at risk even if the majority of scientists say the risk is “extremely small”? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/2 "2007-11-28T14:35:43Z")
How many more threads about this do we need? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/3 "2007-11-28T15:31:58Z")
The way I understand it from other threads, a black hole produced by the LHC would be vanishingly small and could not possibly destroy the world. However I’m starting to wonder if the combined mass of the LHC-Earthgoboom threads will become great enough to cause a black hole of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/4 "2007-11-28T15:43:59Z")
> [@the Wikipedia article](#): > > One argument for the safety of colliders such as the LHC states that if the Earth were in danger of any such fate, the Earth and Moon would have met that fate billions of years ago due to their constant bombardment from space by very high energy cosmic rays such as protons and other particles, which are millions of times more energetic than anything that could be produced by the LHC. This seems like a sensible argument. Surely if the Universe were fragile enough to be destroyed by a a high-energy particle collision, none of us would be around to worry about it by now. [QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] When I was a boy I was very curious. I wanted to know what this stuff was that made things happen and I knew enough that if I stuck a nail into an electrical socket I would find out. I did have experience with electric fences, though unpleasant, gave me weird feelings. [/QUOTE] Is this really fair? You admit to getting “weird feelings” from your amateur electrical experiments, and yet you would deny scientists the opportunity to enjoy a really large hadron. Honestly, who among us hasn’t wished for a larger, more impressive hadron? Such a desire is perfectly natural. Despite what the nuns may have told you, the Universe will not end if you play with your hadron. If only more of us could share the enthusiastic attitude of the Large Hadron Collider team, with their exuberant motto prominently displayed on T-shirts and bumper stickers: “I’ve Got a Hadron for Science!” > [@](#): > > I read somewhere elso that temperatures will exceed that of the sun. I’m pretty sure scientists have already created such temperatures on Earth before. Just don’t touch it while it’s running, or you may burn your hadron. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/5 "2007-11-28T15:44:19Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] The way I understand it from other threads, a black hole produced by the LHC would be vanishingly small and could not possibly destroy the world. However I’m starting to wonder if the combined mass of the LHC-Earthgoboom threads will become great enough to cause a black hole of their own. [/QUOTE] You’ll know because of the huge Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/6 "2007-11-28T17:59:27Z")
Other threads: > **[Large Hadron Collider: convince me to not be freaked out by this](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=428308)** > > I think there was a thread on the Large Hadron Collider a while ago, but I was just thinking about it last night for some reason and it got me pretty freaked out. I mean, the idea of the earth being destroyed by a black hole is not too appealing to... > **[Should we be messing with stuff that could destroy the world (Large Hadron...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=444689)** > > Related to this thread which I started some months ago and resurrected after coming across some more debate on the subject. That thread was discussing the technical aspects of the risks involved in a particle accelerator which could supposedly... > **[Large Hadron Collider: Excited? Afraid?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=419655)** > > Anybody have any thoughts on the Large Hadron Collider? I’m pretty excited. Plus there seems to be a (very remote) possibility of creating a black hole on Earth! Whoops! Haha… Those crazy physicists, all 2000+ of them. > **[Will that supercollider n Switzerland kill us all in Nov.?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=414353)** > > November is when they’re going to “flip” the switch at CERN. A lot of scientists are saying that they’re “pretty sure” there won’t be a chain reaction at the atomic level (that would wipe us all out), but who knows for sure? I bet there’s going to... ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/7 "2007-11-28T20:19:19Z")
Wish they’d hurry up and flip the switch so we dont have to deal with these threads anymore. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/8 "2007-11-28T20:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=Grey] Wish they’d hurry up and flip the switch so we dont have to deal with these threads anymore. [/QUOTE] But that’s exactly what caused the [most recent delay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Construction_accidents_and_delays)! 😛 LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/9 "2007-11-28T20:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] I’m pretty sure scientists have already created such temperatures on Earth before. [/QUOTE] Scientists? Pshaw - the center of a lightning bolt is six times the temperature of the sun’s surface. Who needs scientists? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/10 "2007-11-28T20:53:56Z")
> [@](#): > > …capable of destroying the Earth or even the entire Universe They called me mad! Mad! They laughed at my theories!! _But when I destroy the Earth or even **the entire Universe, they won’t laugh then!!!** _ BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/11 "2007-11-29T00:33:23Z")
Well Ican see that my concerns for the safety of life on planet earth is of no concern to this community. On the one hand I’m just an undereducated isolated voice in the SDMB community that doesn’t quite trust the upper echelons of powerful self interest groups whether they be scientists/universities or scientists/corporations. The best assurance I’m given is that the risk of black holes is very small. More succinctly, I’m not concerned with black holes on earth. What I am concerned with is one black hole. Period. More than anything I’m perplexed at the perceived risk benefit ratio. The scientists have acknowledged risk. The upside is the verification of Higgs bosun. Or not. Greedy men can be blinded by the prospect of gold. Scientists can be blinded by the prospect of revelations. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/12 "2007-11-29T00:46:47Z")
You can’t seriously be this obtuse. All of our current understanding gives us a vanishingly small chance for a microscopic black hole to form for all of a millionth of a second affecting nothing. We also understand that the universe has been doing these things at a MUCH grander scale for 13.7 billion years and it’s still here. And you know all this. Alarmist much? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/13 "2007-11-29T01:13:45Z")
[QUOTE=Kinthalis] You can’t seriously be this obtuse. All of our current understanding gives us a vanishingly small chance for a microscopic black hole to form for all of a millionth of a second affecting nothing. [/quote] Microscopic or not, billionth of a second or not, the nature of a black hole is defined by the accretion of matter the gravity of which is so intense to include photons as well. Think about it. In your millionth of a second, how many photons can a black hole absorb? And what just what terminates the appetite of a black hole? Especially after a millionth of a second? Do we have any evidence of a terminated black hole? That just might reassure me. > [@](#): > > We also understand that the universe has been doing these things at a MUCH grander scale for 13.7 billion years and it’s still here. Yes, but the influence of black holes is remote, very remote. Fortunately. So is the sun to a lesser degree. Fortunately. Lets keep it that way. > [@](#): > > And you know all this. Are you kidding? The problem is that I don’t know and I’m expected to accept the word of a segment of society with an agenda (that I can understand) reminiscent of powerful tobacco companies, under oath, that will tell you that cigarrettes are not adictive. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/14 "2007-11-29T01:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Well Ican see that my concerns for the safety of life on planet earth is of no concern to this community. On the one hand I’m just an undereducated isolated voice in the SDMB community that doesn’t quite trust the upper echelons of powerful self interest groups whether they be scientists/universities or scientists/corporations. The best assurance I’m given is that the risk of black holes is very small. More succinctly, I’m not concerned with black holes on earth. What I am concerned with is one black hole. Period. More than anything I’m perplexed at the perceived risk benefit ratio. The scientists have acknowledged risk. The upside is the verification of Higgs bosun. Or not. Greedy men can be blinded by the prospect of gold. Scientists can be blinded by the prospect of revelations. [/QUOTE] Spare us your sanctimonious martyr routine unless you can provide a mechanism to create long living mini-back holes with a “diameter” far below the Planck length through energies orders of magnitude below cosmic ray / particle interactions in our atmosphere. Honestly what exactly do you think a black hole does? It’s simply a very dense piece of matter that won’t allow anything crossing its event horizon to return. But you have to actually cross the horizon for it to be a problem. Think of it this way, your fridge magnet is strong enough to hold up a shopping list **despite** 5.9e10[sup]24[/sup]kgs worth of planet trying to pull it down. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/15 "2007-11-29T01:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=Grey] Spare us your sanctimonious martyr routine unless you can provide a mechanism to create long living mini-back holes with a “diameter” far below the Planck length through energies orders of magnitude below cosmic ray / particle interactions in our atmosphere. [/QUOTe] Very well, I didn’t realize I was being sanctimonious and I don’[t know how to create a black hole so as per your request I’ll withdraw my concern. But could you please do me a favour, my good man and tell me what initiates a black hole. Its okay if you don’t know though. I’ll understand. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/16 "2007-11-29T02:18:14Z")
> [@TFD](#): > > The upside is the verification of Higgs bosun. Arr, mateys, I met old Bosun Higgs back when I served as cook on the _Nancy_ brig. Never knew him to need verifyin’! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/17 "2007-11-29T03:14:40Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Arr, mateys, I met old Bosun Higgs back when I served as cook on the _Nancy_ brig. Never knew him to need verifyin’! [/QUOTE] Yarrr, he was charming, but strange… [sub]and he always insisted on being the top…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/18 "2007-11-29T03:51:50Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] But could you please do me a favour, my good man and tell me what initiates a black hole. Its okay if you don’t know though. I’ll understand. [/QUOTE] Energy levels in excess of what happens above your head all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/19 "2007-11-29T04:58:18Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Are you kidding? The problem is that I don’t know and I’m expected to accept the word of a segment of society with an agenda (that I can understand) [/QUOTE] _But that is exactly what you ARE doing_. Who told you that there might be a small risk? That same segment of society you then claim has an agenda in dismissing the possibility. Who’s to say the black hole won’t grow far too fast in that millionth of a second, and gobble up the earth? The same ‘segment of society’ that postulated the existence of black holes to begin with! If you’re so ready to believe that ‘segment of society’ when they hypothesise the existence of black holes, why do you DISbelieve them when they discount the possibility of an earth-gobbling black hole? You can’t have your cake and eat it. Physics is one big package. You seem to want to cherry-pick the components of existence. I’ll have a super-double deluxe black hole to go, but please hold the Hawking evaporation? It doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026/20 "2007-11-29T05:48:43Z")
The black hole being trumpeted as the bringer of universal doom is smaller than any other massive particle in all but mass. In mass, it is exactly twice as massive as a single proton. You are surrounded by many trillions of objects far more massive than this theoretical black hole. Have you fallen into any of them? On a side note, I was wondering if perhaps dark matter is simply the vast number of nano black holes created by cosmic ray collisions over billions of years. The particles drift around in space, creating gravitational “anomalies” and are pretty much undetectable by any other means. As galaxies move around by light pressure, and impacts from waves of gas and such, the itty bitty black holes remain behind, orbiting around each other, and accreting very slowly because of their small radius, and consequently low frequency of collision with each other, and with other normal matter. (Which idea necessarily assumes Hawking radiation doesn’t happen, of course.) ``` Tris ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/large-hadron-collider-curiosity-killed-the-cat/428026.md?page=2)