# Larry Krasner: What justice looks like **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613 "2018-04-02T02:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/21 "2018-04-02T19:45:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why is it that no one ever seems to care about the victims of these people? Or the ones who become victims after they’ve been unleashed upon society time and time again? > > We’ve already been at the point in this country for decades where people with long rap sheets are walking around free, often while still in their twenties or early thirties. This means they have a long history of victimizing people and yet are being set free over and over again to victimize even more people. Yet the focus from the left is always “How do we keep 'em out/get 'em out of jail?”. > > It’s all well and good to favor the underdog, but when the underdog is robbing, assaulting, raping and killing people, it might be time to recognize that the real underdogs are the people that these people victimize. This mischaracterizes both the goal of the article and the position of liberals on criminal justice. Fair and equal treatment is a big part of it, but it’s also this – treating people like animals and monsters makes them more likely to behave like animals and monsters. Treating people like they’re humans who have the potential to become good citiziens means that at least some will rehabilitiate. Not all convicts are monsters or otherwise hopeless. But many who are reachable have no chance of becoming good citizens if they’re sent to privately run hellholes for years and years of inhumane treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/22 "2018-04-02T19:50:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This mischaracterizes both the goal of the article and the position of liberals on criminal justice. Fair and equal treatment is a big part of it, but it’s also this – treating people like animals and monsters makes them more likely to behave like animals and monsters. Treating people like they’re humans who have the potential to become good citiziens means that at least some will rehabilitiate. Not all convicts are monsters or otherwise hopeless. But many who are reachable have no chance of becoming good citizens if they’re sent to privately run hellholes for years and years of inhumane treatment. Well said. The [US has one of the highest recidivism rates in the world; Norway has one of the lowest.](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12) It’s hard not to conclude that the Norwegians care far more about the victims of crime than Americans do, because they work to create fewer victims, and we work to create more of them. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/23 "2018-04-02T19:59:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Did you not read the article? It highlights the following initiatives by Krasner: > > 1. Reveal, and presumably work to remove, officers with a history of misconduct. > 2. Stop prosecuting people for marijuana possession. > 3. Stop prosecuting sex workers who have fewer than three criminal convictions. > 4. Increase the use of diversion programs. > 5. Stop over-charging. > 6. Start justifying the expense of imprisonment. > 7. Reform the probation system. > > How do you read that, and conclude that Krasner doesn’t care about victims of crimes? No, I didn’t read the article. My complaint has to do with the liberal activism on behalf on criminals that has been going on nationwide since the sixties. There is literally no way to know how many people have been raped, robbed, assaulted and killed in the time since by criminals that liberal-minded activists/lawyers/judges have gotten off on technicalities, pled down to lesser offenses or released from prison prematurely. They left is so het up about gun deaths these days, but the number of people victimized and killed by criminals who should have been behind bars far outweighs it, and I’m wondering why it is that the left is always so blasé about this. > [@Human Action](#): > > Well said. The US has one of the highest recidivism rates in the world; Norway has one of the lowest. It’s hard not to conclude that the Norwegians care far more about the victims of crime than Americans do, because they work to create fewer victims, and we work to create more of them. A specious argument. Norway has fewer social issues and a much more homogenous population than we have. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/24 "2018-04-02T20:04:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t read the article. My complaint has to do with the liberal activism on behalf on criminals that has been going on nationwide since the sixties. There is literally no way to know how many people have been raped, robbed, assaulted and killed in the time since by criminals that liberal-minded activists/lawyers/judges have gotten off on technicalities, pled down to lesser offenses or released from prison prematurely. They left is so het up about gun deaths these days, but the number of people victimized and killed by criminals who should have been behind bars far outweighs it, and I’m wondering why it is that the left is always so blasé about the victims of these crimes. Wow, that’s a mouthful. Your talking points don’t match reality, so I guess it’s hard to get worked up about the “victims” of a non existent problem. Technicalities" usually means upholding constutinal rights, something I thought left and right agreed on. “Pled down to lessor offenses” usually means a compromise when the defendant is either overcharged or there are proof problems. I have never seen a prosecutor take a strong case with a violent offender and let them plead to a non-serious crime. The prosecutor’s I worked with were quite willing to hold firm when they had a violent offender in their mitts. In our state, and many others, people don’t get out of prison “prematurely” anymore. We have determinate sentences and only 15% maximum “good time” early release. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/25 "2018-04-02T20:04:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > A specious argument. Norway has fewer social issues and a much more homogenous population than we have. Aha, the “we have to put the black people in their place” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/26 "2018-04-02T20:11:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t read the article. I’m shocked! SHOCKED! Well, not _that_ shocked. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/27 "2018-04-02T20:15:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t read the article. My complaint has to do with the liberal activism on behalf on criminals that has been going on nationwide since the sixties. There is literally no way to know how many people have been raped, robbed, assaulted and killed in the time since by criminals that liberal-minded activists/lawyers/judges have gotten off on technicalities, pled down to lesser offenses or released from prison prematurely. They left is so het up about gun deaths these days, but the number of people victimized and killed by criminals who should have been behind bars far outweighs it, and I’m wondering why it is that the left is always so blasé about this. > > A specious argument. Norway has fewer social issues and a much more homogenous population than we have. Norway expends great effort in trying to rehabilitate criminals, with great success by their statistics. That seems like a worthy goal to me,especially because it could reduce crime significantly if it worked. It’s a shame that you don’t seem interested in learning from their success. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/28 "2018-04-02T20:22:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Back in the 1960s-1980s period, it was not unusual at all for someone to get a 20 year sentence for murder and then get parole in only three years. I’m actually on a project right now, reading my local South Florida newspaper from 1980, and the crime stories, most of which involve people with extensive rap sheets walking around free after serving 20% of their sentence or less, is appalling. That happens so that room can be made in the jails for all of the drug hoppers. Gotta keep them locked up. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/29 "2018-04-02T20:22:17Z")
Hey, everyone! **Starving Artist** blamed the hippies for everything he hates about modern society again! DRINK! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/30 "2018-04-02T20:24:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Technicalities" usually means upholding constutinal rights, something I thought left and right agreed on. Have you not been paying attention the last 20-30 years? The only constitutional rights the right-wing agrees on is the 2nd Amendment and that money=speech. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/31 "2018-04-02T20:25:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > a much more homogenous population than we have. Isn’t this the latest code for “They don’t have black folk there messing things up”? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/32 "2018-04-02T20:27:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I predict rising crime rates in Philly’s future. It’s amazing that you can predict that, given the great complexities of the issues and the dearth of reliable data for international and inter-jurisdictional comparisons, and even more amazing considering that there is at least some data suggesting that a focus on rehabilitation is associated with lower rates of recidivism. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why is it that no one ever seems to care about the victims of these people? Or the ones who become victims after they’ve been unleashed upon society time and time again? Maybe because when you’re planning policy, the focus is on improving the future, not on emotional knee-jerk retribution for the past regardless of the consequences. There’s nothing wrong with focusing on the balance between punishment and rehabilitation as a tool for crime prevention. Unless of course you’re suggesting that anyone who commits any crime should be executed on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/33 "2018-04-02T20:28:18Z")
**Starving Artist** , if there’s literally no way to know how many people were hurt as a result of such policies, then you can’t exactly use that as a basis for an argument against them, can you? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/34 "2018-04-02T20:29:56Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Hey, everyone! **Starving Artist** blamed the hippies for everything he hates about modern society again! DRINK! This isn’t the first time you’ve taken an ad hominem attack on Starving Artist, Jayjay. This time it’ll earn you a warning. Stay on topic in the future, please. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/35 "2018-04-02T21:47:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t read the article. My complaint has to do with the liberal activism on behalf on criminals that has been going on nationwide since the sixties. There is literally no way to know how many people have been raped, robbed, assaulted and killed in the time since by criminals that liberal-minded activists/lawyers/judges have gotten off on technicalities, pled down to lesser offenses or released from prison prematurely. They left is so het up about gun deaths these days, but the number of people victimized and killed by criminals who should have been behind bars far outweighs it, and I’m wondering why it is that the left is always so blasé about this. Maybe start a thread about this, then? The subject of the OP is reforming victimless crimes and trying to get rid of officers with a history of misconduct. Unless that’s part of the alleged activism on behalf of criminals that creates more victims, it’s a non-sequitur. > [@](#): > > A specious argument. Norway has fewer social issues and a much more homogenous population than we have. Well, one social issue we struggle with and they don’t is that we do a horrible job of rehabilitating criminals, to the extent that we even try. Given a choice between brutalizing criminals and preventing crime, we go with the former every time. Clearly, we don’t care about victims all that much, but not for the reasons you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/36 "2018-04-03T15:50:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I didn’t read the article. My complaint has to do with the liberal activism on behalf on criminals that has been going on nationwide since the sixties. There is literally no way to know how many people have been raped, robbed, assaulted and killed in the time since by criminals that liberal-minded activists/lawyers/judges have gotten off on technicalities, pled down to lesser offenses or released from prison prematurely. They left is so het up about gun deaths these days, but the number of people victimized and killed by criminals who should have been behind bars far outweighs it, and I’m wondering why it is that the left is always so blasé about this. Thank you for this post. It completely validates liberal views of justice reform. There’s no way a person who has done something like selling an ounce of marijuana or offering their genitals out for rent can hope to be treated fairly by who holds opinions like yours. There is no way a person who is a victim of an unethical police officer can hope for justice. You see a thread about a DA’s reforms. You didn’t have any curiosity about the proposed reforms. You just jumped into the standard stereotypes of “liberals” and “victims” and “violent offenders” and “justice reform”, but this isn’t about any of those things. This is about human beings, who, once they go to prison over something like selling marijuana or their bodies or who fall victim to corruption, spend the rest of their days paying for it. This unjustified cost is because some people behave as if all criminals are basically murderers. Just show the simple respect of differentiating between people who make a minor mistake versus people who deserve severe punishment and talk about the topic of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/37 "2018-04-03T15:56:41Z")
Any time I see someone making an argument that a “homogenous population” has fewer social issues, I read it as “all white population” and judge the person making that statement accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/38 "2018-04-03T16:34:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Any time I see someone making an argument that a “homogenous population” has fewer social issues, I read it as “all white population” and judge the person making that statement accordingly. I daresay it’s fair to take it as a tacit admission that the disparities are environmental, i.e. “we’re not homogeneous” means “we have a large black population and systematically discriminate against it.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/39 "2018-04-03T18:01:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Any time I see someone making an argument that a “homogenous population” has fewer social issues, I read it as “all white population” and judge the person making that statement accordingly. Judge me all you like. Diversity breeds conflict. So does racism and a history of slavery. Both require time and deliberate effort to overcome, and until that happens both breed crime. These are facts that everyone knows but which few of a certain ideology will admit out loud, and stating them is in no way racist by any reasonable and honest definition of the word. Whenever I see someone condemning someone else for stating indisputable fact, and insisting we turn a blind eye to it and pretend it doesn’t exist for PC reasons, I judge that person accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613/40 "2018-04-03T18:05:51Z")
Or we could just view all humans as human, therefore concerns about too much diversity fall away, since we’d be a 100% human society. But I guess we’ll never get to that point when some can look at specific humans that happen to have a different skin color and only see them by that difference rather than who they are as an individual human persons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/larry-krasner-what-justice-looks-like/811613.md?page=3)