# Lasagna: ricotta or bechamel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556 "2019-08-12T14:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/101 "2019-08-19T12:07:34Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Ok, while I have everyone’s attention, I’ve noticed in this and other threads that Americans sometimes use ‘noodles’ to refer to pasta in general? Is this right? Or is it just for long thin pasta like spaghetti or linguine. > > Full disclosure, I would only use ‘noodles’ to refer to the long thin things that typically come with cuisine from the Far East. Not Italy. I’m an American and generally use “pasta” to refer to the various Italian things like spaghetti, lasagna, rigatoni, etc. I use “noodles” when refering to the far eastern things or things like this: [https://www.walmart.com/ip/4-pack-Great-Value-Wide-Egg-Noodles-16-oz/578178620](https://www.walmart.com/ip/4-pack-Great-Value-Wide-Egg-Noodles-16-oz/578178620) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/102 "2019-08-19T13:26:20Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Ok, while I have everyone’s attention, I’ve noticed in this and other threads that Americans sometimes use ‘noodles’ to refer to pasta in general? Is this right? Or is it just for long thin pasta like spaghetti or linguine. > > Full disclosure, I would only use ‘noodles’ to refer to the long thin things that typically come with cuisine from the Far East. Not Italy. No, it’s not just thin pasta like spaghetti or linguine (and I tend not to use it for those shapes.) My personal tendency is to use “noodles” most commonly for short egg noodles of a flat, or flat and twisty sort like [this](https://www.amazon.com/Light-Fluffy-Extra-Wide-Noodles/dp/B0077DVCQ4). But then there’s the noodles in “chicken noodle soup,” which can be pretty much any kind of pasta. But, thinking about it now, I think “noodles” to me conjures up wider styles of pasta rather than thinner ones. I will sometimes say “lasagna noodles” when describing the sheets. I’m not sure why, and it’s not common for me to refer to them, but that sounds natural to me, so I must have picked it up here. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/103 "2019-08-19T15:02:14Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I’m an American and generally use “pasta” to refer to the various Italian things like spaghetti, lasagna, rigatoni, etc. I use “noodles” when refering to the far eastern things or things like this: [https://www.walmart.com/ip/4-pack-Great-Value-Wide-Egg-Noodles-16-oz/578178620](https://www.walmart.com/ip/4-pack-Great-Value-Wide-Egg-Noodles-16-oz/578178620) > [@pulykamell](#): > > No, it’s not just thin pasta like spaghetti or linguine (and I tend not to use it for those shapes.) My personal tendency is to use “noodles” most commonly for short egg noodles of a flat, or flat and twisty sort like [this](https://www.amazon.com/Light-Fluffy-Extra-Wide-Noodles/dp/B0077DVCQ4). But then there’s the noodles in “chicken noodle soup,” which can be pretty much any kind of pasta. But, thinking about it now, I think “noodles” to me conjures up wider styles of pasta rather than thinner ones. > > I will sometimes say “lasagna noodles” when describing the sheets. I’m not sure why, and it’s not common for me to refer to them, but that sounds natural to me, so I must have picked it up here. I forgot about chicken noodle soup. That often has short spaghetti-like things that, for some reason, we refer to as noodles rather than pasta. I guess the best way to describe our usage is that if it’s prepared in an Italian manner it’s pasta otherwise it’s noodles, but there are probably a few exceptions to that. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/104 "2019-08-19T15:49:14Z")
Seems pretty common to me, perhaps I was raised by rubes, to refer to the pasta portion of a plate of spaghetti as spaghetti noodles. I’ve never before considered if that was proper. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/105 "2019-08-19T15:55:31Z")
When I referred to “pasta sheets” for the first time, meaning uncooked dried lasagne, my American husband laughed aloud. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/106 "2019-08-19T16:30:15Z")
whoops. dupe. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/107 "2019-08-20T05:21:50Z")
When I make regular lasagne, I use tomato sauce and ricotta. When I make lasagne Florentine, I use béchamel and spinach. The OP seems to think of replacing ricotta with béchamel. That isn’t how I think of it. Béchamel replaces tomato sauce. Spinach replaces ricotta. Anyway, I voted both B & R. Edit: I should have voted sometimes one, sometimes the other. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/108 "2019-08-21T05:52:16Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Agree You are both dead to me. I’d never heard of bechamel (or the Italian besciamella) being used in lasagna until relatively recently. It’s just milk and flour, basically - seems like all it would do is help moisten the noodles. The cheese (ricotta, dammit!!) gives flavor and protein beyond what milk could do. Once or twice I have been served lasagna in a restaurant that was probably made with bechamel, in hindsight - no tomato / meat in it at all, maybe with a bit of tomato poured over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/109 "2019-08-21T06:01:35Z")
FYI, my mother (whose ties to Italy come no closer than Germany or Hungary) got a lasagna recipe from some utterly American cookbook in the 1960s, and I honestly think it’s the best lasagna I’ve ever had. The meat sauce is basically tomatoes, meat, onions and I think garlic - no oregano or other seasonings. Then assemble as follows: thin layer of meat sauce layer of noodles Ricotta (we just blop spoonfuls of it along the noodles, we don’t try to spread it) mozzarella grated parmesan (the stuff in a can, nothing fancy). Repeat until you can’t fit any more in the pan. Last layers are noodles, more mozzarella / parm, and a bit of meat sauce to make sure there are no nekkid noodles to get crunchy in the oven. Every couple of years I’ll buy a whole lotta ingredients and foil pans, and have a massive lasagna assembly line going on where I freeze pan after pan of the stuff. Too darn much trouble otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/110 "2019-08-21T06:03:59Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Lasagne layered with spinach, sometimes called Florentine,\* is of course made with béchamel. It’s been many long years since I’ve seen that dish, since “Florentine” was last trendy in the 1970s… Well, this is the definitive answer as to why bechamel / besciamella sauce in lasagna is just plain wrong. If it’s associated with spinach it’s evil. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/111 "2019-08-21T08:51:15Z")
Hm? I’ll stand by my belief that they go well together. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/112 "2019-08-21T14:05:13Z")
Alright then, where do we stand concerning boiling or even par-boiling the pasta (almost said noodles) before assembling the lasagna? I’ve found better results par-boiling. Otherwise, I feel I must add extra water before baking the thing, and I don’t get the amount right. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/113 "2019-08-21T14:13:21Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Alright then, where do we stand concerning boiling or even par-boiling the pasta (almost said noodles) before assembling the lasagna? I’ve found better results par-boiling. Otherwise, I feel I must add extra water before baking the thing, and I don’t get the amount right. The lasagna I usually make (spinach lasagna sheets, bolognese, bechamel), I make from scratch, and with that, I do find par boiling the noodles makes a difference in texture. Par-boiled, the final dish comes out with more distinct layers; cooking it without parboiling noodles, I find the result more mushy. Now, this doesn’t mean the dish isn’t good in both cases, but I prefer the texture of the better separated noodles. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/114 "2019-08-21T14:49:46Z")
I’m the opposite - I par-boil store-bought dried sheets, but if I’ve made the sheets myself, I don’t bother, they cook in the sauces. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/115 "2019-08-22T00:59:56Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Alright then, where do we stand concerning boiling or even par-boiling the pasta (almost said noodles) before assembling the lasagna? I’ve found better results par-boiling. Otherwise, I feel I must add extra water before baking the thing, and I don’t get the amount right. I always used to precook the noodles - it’s what the recipe called for. Then I read an article at Epicurious that made the point that using the no-cook noodles not only reduced the effort involved - but absorbed any extra liquid from the other ingredients. As I tend to make mine sauce-heavy, that’s actually a good idea - so I’ve used the no-boil noodles the last few rounds. I wouldn’t use regular noodles w/o boiling at least partly. The downsides of the no-cook noodles are a) they aren’t quite the same size as regular ones so they don’t fill the pan quite as well, and b) they’re a bit more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/116 "2019-08-23T05:44:51Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Hm? I’ll stand by my belief that they go well together. And do they do - on SOMEONE ELSE’S PLATE 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/117 "2019-08-23T09:13:21Z")
Cripes, you make “Lasagna” with Ricotta? And you use catsup for the Tomato? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/118 "2019-08-23T12:17:14Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Cripes, you make “Lasagna” with Ricotta? And you use catsup for the Tomato? Don’t know where you get the idea of ketchup being used. No, look up recipes for Neapolitan or Sicilian lasagna. They all pretty much have ricotta & mozz – there is nothing odd or inauthentic about ricotta in lasagna such that would require you putting quotation marks/inverted commas around them. The Italians that emigrated to the US were largely from this part of Italy, hence that type of lasagna being the standard in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/119 "2019-08-23T13:22:04Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Don’t know where you get the idea of ketchup being used. > > No, look up recipes for Neapolitan or Sicilian lasagna. They all pretty much have ricotta & mozz – there is nothing odd or inauthentic about ricotta in lasagna such that would require you putting quotation marks/inverted commas around them. The Italians that emigrated to the US were largely from this part of Italy, hence that type of lasagna being the standard in the US. I think the reference to ketchup was from pulykamell’s early experiments with pasta sauce - she certainly implied the results were not especially delicious ;). Several people have mentioned that when using ricotta, they mix with egg and perhaps some herbs. I know my mother tried the egg mixture once and wasn’t terribly pleased with the results. I have never tried - maybe next time I do a lasagna assembly line, I’ll do that with one panful and see what i think of the results. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556/120 "2019-08-23T13:50:15Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > I think the reference to ketchup was from pulykamell’s early experiments with pasta sauce - she certainly implied the results were not especially delicious ;). Hey, it wasn’t ketchup _for_ the tomato! It was in addition to, at the time, add some thickness and flavor to the sauce. But yeah, in combination with all the other stuff I used to put in there, it didn’t quite work out. I do occasionally add a dab of ketchup to tomato-based sauces, though. Not really for pasta, but for stews and such, it actually does work well to up the umami and flavor, but when you’re going for the clean tomato flavor of pasta sauces I go for these days, not so much. (And, not that it matters, but I’m a “he.”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lasagna-ricotta-or-bechamel/838556.md?page=7)