# Last Hobbit movie done, so are the Tolkien LOTR universe movies pretty much over at this point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 28, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385 "2014-12-28T22:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/41 "2014-12-30T00:32:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Note there’s like a half-dozen named elves in LotR outside the appendices and I think only one in the Hobbit. Do you want everyone to be “nameless elf #3?” No, that wouldn’t make any sense. One of them’s got to be “nameless elf #1”, and then you’ve got #2 and #3 and #4 and so on. But seriously, in a movie, named characters are narratively expensive, and _The Hobbit_ already has over a dozen of them (18, by my count) that absolutely cannot be done without, plus several others that would leave a hole. Now, a couple of them (Gandalf and Gollum) benefit from being already introduced in the Lord of the Rings movies, and Smaug is pretty well characterized as “the big nasty dragon”, but that still leaves a whopping fifteen humanoids, each of whom needs at least some nominal character development. When you’ve already got that many characters you need to develop, it’s folly to add more without damn good reason. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/42 "2014-12-30T01:00:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B: The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands), “The Third Age” > > So? > > Note there’s like a half-dozen named elves in LotR outside the appendices and I think only one in the Hobbit. Do you want everyone to be “nameless elf #3?” Is it weird to want to see movies for _all_ the Appendices? Even “Calendars”? ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/43 "2014-12-30T01:21:20Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Is it weird to want to see movies for _all_ the Appendices? Even “Calendars”? I want to see a movie made on appendix E, “Pronunciation of words and names”. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/44 "2014-12-30T07:13:38Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > And in order: > > Everything to do with Radagast, and everything to do with the White Council, was made up by Jackson - it was not in _The Hobbit_, and next to nothing was explicitly said about it anywhere else either. > > Legolas was indeed Thranduil’s son and heir. The point still stands that neither he nor anyone else said anything about what he did during the time of _The Hobbit_. > > If we’re to insist on allowing the existence of a named character and a whole story arc simply on the grounds that nothing in the book says they _didn’t_ exist, then I think we’re leaving the path of wisdom further behind than Thorin & Co left the path through Mirkwood, and with as little chance of ever finding it again. There are a few instances of powerful female elves - Galadriel and Luthien, one the daughter of a Maia and the other personally tutored by her, are the first that spring to mind - but none I can recollect who were renowned as warriors, and dragging one in merely in order to make the movie less of a “sausage-fest” :rolleyes: is yet another example of PJ making shit up. > > You got so close with the business of Thranduil and the white gems, and if only you’d dug a little deeper you would know that the business about the elf-king’s treasure was an extremely old one, and “…All this was well known to every dwarf, although Thorin’s family had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of”. Again, Jackson took the reference to the elf-king’s fondness for silver and white gems and dreamed up a plot-line around it, making Thranduil greedy for some of Thorin’s own treasure when the book said nothing of the sort. > > As for the lack of resolution and “I bet it’s there in the extended version”, if Jackson could stop dragging out the stupid fight scenes much longer than necessary (all of them his own imagining) he might be able to get on with actually telling the story in the lousy 7 1/2 hours of screen time he had between the three movies. > > The were-worms - again, they’re mentioned, once, like Radagast and a few other things, and Jackson decides he’s going to drag them in too. There is nothing to suggest that the were-worms are anything other than a hobbit myth, located at the very far end of the world beyond the bit labelled “Here Be Dragons”, but if we’re to take them as anything other than a hobbit myth then firstly they have no business being anywhere near Erebor at all when they belong in the Last Desert in the uttermost East, and secondly the “Were-” part of the name, if it means anything at all, doesn’t suggest the kind of critter that burrows vast tunnels through the earth for hundreds of miles (and yet don’t do it often enough to make any difference to any of the stories that we know about), but a creature that is sometimes a man and sometime a “worm”, whether that means a snake or a dragonet. So again, Jackson made it up. > But you asked: “What is not part of the story?”, and I told you. Now you want to shift the debate to “What is there that can’t be shown to have existed, at least in name, somewhere in Middle-Earth, and if there’s nothing to say explicitly that it wasn’t there at the time of The Hobbit then we can say it was?”. All fine and dandy, but a completely different question from the one you first asked - and doesn’t address the major stumbling block: Whether you like the movies or not, the one thing Jackson hasn’t done is tell the story that Tolkien wrote. Hubristic of him, I’d say; no wonder if Christopher is hopping mad. Yeah… but really at root it’s just a fantasy adventure story and you’re treating it almost like a creationist regards the King James Bible. At some point in the future I fully expect we’ll have LOTR hermeneutics. Historically movies based on noted books are rarely to an author’s liking. Peter Jackson has a number of audiences and stakeholders to satisfy and the movie has to stand on it’s own as a work. A movie rigidly faithful to the text would not likely be commercially viable despite what LOTR fans might want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/45 "2014-12-30T07:37:50Z")
I feel pretty safe in saying that, after the LotR smash success, Jackson could have done a pretty faithful two-part\* Hobbit film that would also have been a big hit. - Two parts being necessary to do it pretty faithfully, without the substantial abridgement seen in the first trilogy. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/46 "2014-12-30T09:23:00Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Yeah… but really at root it’s just a fantasy adventure story and you’re treating it almost like a creationist regards the King James Bible. At some point in the future I fully expect we’ll have LOTR hermeneutics. > > Historically movies based on noted books are rarely to an author’s liking. Peter Jackson has a number of audiences and stakeholders to satisfy and the movie has to stand on it’s own as a work. A movie rigidly faithful to the text would not likely be commercially viable despite what LOTR fans might want to believe. Oh dear, now I’ve been compared to a creationist. My argument is invalid. I’m not sure where your likely lack of commercial viability comes from unless you’re seriously arguing that all the chase scenes, martial-arts movie stuff and smouldering glances between red-haired elf-maids and handsome young dwarves are indispensable to getting bums on seats, but it’s my contention that telling the story Tolkien told has not been tried and found wanting; it’s gone completely unattempted. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/47 "2014-12-30T11:20:07Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I feel pretty safe in saying that, after the LotR smash success, Jackson could have done a pretty faithful two-part\* Hobbit film that would also have been a big hit. > > - Two parts being necessary to do it pretty faithfully, without the substantial abridgement seen in the first trilogy. That’s kind of how I’ve felt as well. Two parts for sure but I’m not sure where to make the break. Somewhere around Mirkwood, but I’m trying to decide if it’d be better to do it at Beorn’s house, after they’ve been captured by the spiders, or after they’ve been captured by the Elves. Heck, I think you could even make it a trilogy and bring in the White Council and Dol Guldur based on the extra material and make it work. Clearly Jackson did not, and the movies are hurt by everything from chase scenes to invented characters and whole-cloth inventions of plot lines. There’s got to be a mid-point between the Rankin-Bass _Hobbit_ and the Jackson _Hobbit_ that would make a good movie. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/48 "2014-12-30T13:30:00Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Well, there’s always re-edits of the original filmed series. How many different versions of SW has Lucas released? Aw, hell, no. If Jackson issues a re-edit, he’s going to _add more_, not cut it down. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/49 "2014-12-30T15:29:36Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > That’s kind of how I’ve felt as well. Two parts for sure but I’m not sure where to make the break. Somewhere around Mirkwood, but I’m trying to decide if it’d be better to do it at Beorn’s house, after they’ve been captured by the spiders, or after they’ve been captured by the Elves. I’d actually cut it right as they went IN to Mirkwood, myself. It’s ominous but not OMG CLIFFHANGER! > [@](#): > > Heck, I think you could even make it a trilogy and bring in the White Council and Dol Guldur based on the extra material and make it work. Clearly Jackson did not, and the movies are hurt by everything from chase scenes to invented characters and whole-cloth inventions of plot lines. Yes. Also, sorry **astro** , but you can wave around ungracious comparisons if you like, but when you get right down to it, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for fans of a work to expect a DERIVATIVE WORK to bear more than a strictly superficial resemblance to the original. There must have been SOMETHING in that original that was worth having, and thinking “Hey, I’m a hotshot movie director/scriptwriter, so clearly I know better than this author and all his fans” is usually a way for movies to BOMB. Allow me to direct you to, say, the film adaptation of The Dark is Rising, which is an imminently filmable book but which was changed eight ways from Sunday to make it more “easy for kids to identify with” or something. In general, you should have a damn good reason anytime you change something from the source material. A lot of the time, that reason is “We’ve got to fit this all into two, two and a half hours, tops.” and that’s fine. But clearly that wasn’t what PJ was wrestling with here. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/50 "2014-12-30T16:37:32Z")
It looks like I am unique in being a Tolkien nerd who isn’t upset by PJ’s depiction of Radagast. I might have done it differently but I didn’t have any problems with it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/51 "2014-12-30T16:42:01Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It looks like I am unique in being a Tolkien nerd who isn’t upset by PJ’s depiction of Radagast. I might have done it differently but I didn’t have any problems with it. No, you’re not the only one. I have no problem with PJ’s adaptations. They’re movies, not books. They’re going to be different. Although I’m not a huge fan of them, either. I only saw the first one and haven’t really felt an urge to see either of the other two. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/52 "2014-12-30T17:03:57Z")
Of course, I also don’t mind the Rankin-Bass adaptation, either. In fact, that’s still the most evocative one for me…all I have to do is see the characters from that one and the whole story comes back, along with the feelings the story gave me when I was a kid. ETA: Let’s just not mention Bakshi, though, okay? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/53 "2014-12-30T17:24:26Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It looks like I am unique in being a Tolkien nerd who isn’t upset by PJ’s depiction of Radagast. I might have done it differently but I didn’t have any problems with it. Nope, he was perfect. It confirms why the rest of The Wise didnt take him seriously, only Gandalf. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/54 "2014-12-30T17:39:24Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It looks like I am unique in being a Tolkien nerd who isn’t upset by PJ’s depiction of Radagast. I might have done it differently but I didn’t have any problems with it. I’m with ya, **Deeg**. Would I have done things differently? For certain. Did that keep me from enjoying seeing PJ’s vision of M-E? Heck no! Saw Hobbit 3 for the 2nd time in the theaters just the other night, with **elfbabe** and her husband, and enjoyed it yet again, while noting further spots where PJ extrapolated from canon, brought in obscure JRRT stuff that only the geekiest of us would get, and made other stuff up out of not quite whole cloth. But his films have provided me with the most JRRT fun since the last volume of HOMES came out. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/55 "2014-12-30T18:07:17Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I’m with ya, **Deeg**. Would I have done things differently? For certain. Did that keep me from enjoying seeing PJ’s vision of M-E? Heck no! > > Saw Hobbit 3 for the 2nd time in the theaters just the other night, with **elfbabe** and her husband, and enjoyed it yet again, while noting further spots where PJ extrapolated from canon, brought in obscure JRRT stuff that only the geekiest of us would get, and made other stuff up out of not quite whole cloth. But his films have provided me with the most JRRT fun since the last volume of HOMES came out. Ugh. I’d rather go play LotRO (which is actually quite good) than watch The Hobbit movies, so I’m going to argue that last assertion. I didn’t even hate Radagast, but I don’t think anything PJ is doing really counts as “bringing in obscure stuff”. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/56 "2014-12-30T18:22:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Of course, I also don’t mind the Rankin-Bass adaptation, either. In fact, that’s still the most evocative one for me…all I have to do is see the characters from that one and the whole story comes back, along with the feelings the story gave me when I was a kid. +1 to this. The current movie makes Rankin-Bass even more impressive. It’s over 35 years old and has less than 1/4th the run time of the trilogy, yet the characters are far more developed, the plot is almost directly from the book (despite leaving out Beorn and maybe the Arkenstone), and it has the better Smaug voiceover and a better Gandalf portrayal. Theaters should just start showing it in protest of PJ. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/57 "2014-12-30T21:12:18Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > +1 to this. The current movie makes Rankin-Bass even more impressive. It’s over 35 years old and has less than 1/4th the run time of the trilogy, yet the characters are far more developed, the plot is almost directly from the book (despite leaving out Beorn and maybe the Arkenstone), and it has the better Smaug voiceover and a better Gandalf portrayal. > > Theaters should just start showing it in protest of PJ. I would go see it. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/58 "2014-12-30T21:30:09Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It looks like I am unique in being a Tolkien nerd who isn’t upset by PJ’s depiction of Radagast. I might have done it differently but I didn’t have any problems with it. I wouldn’t say that I’m upset by the depiction of Radagast per se. The information we get about Radagast is pretty limited. While I personally would see him as being “regal” like the other wizards, I suppose I can live with a wizard who is a bird-shit crazy hobo. If there’s anything I’m upset by, it’s that the movie would have benefited greatly by omitting every scene with Radagast in it. It’s unnecessary and cartoony. Forget staying true to Tolkien… it’s just plain bad movie-making. I can say the same thing about Legolas. The character of Legolas is more or less fine. It’s just that he is also unnecessary and cartoony. Omitting every scene with Legolas would also have been an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/59 "2014-12-30T21:40:02Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I wouldn’t say that I’m upset by the depiction of Radagast per se. The information we get about Radagast is pretty limited. While I personally would see him as being “regal” like the other wizards, I suppose I can live with a wizard who is a bird-shit crazy hobo… Regal? _“Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him.”_ ― Saruman. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385/60 "2014-12-30T21:44:01Z")
I wasn’t really all that crazy about the last Hobbit film but I’d be okay with a movie that was just two hours of Lee Pace as Thranduil in his fancy clothes eye-fucking the camera. I don’t suppose I could get anyone else onboard for that, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-hobbit-movie-done-so-are-the-tolkien-lotr-universe-movies-pretty-much-over-at-this-point/708385.md?page=4)