# Last names...again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2001, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074 "2001-06-16T23:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2001, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/1 "2001-06-16T23:32:31Z")
In this thread, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042) There is a talk over which spouse should drop his/her last name and take the one of his/her partner, or if the keep their unmarried last name, or simply hyphenated. Some said that the hyphenated option was cumbersome. 1. I wonder, why do they hyphenate the last names? Couldn’t them just write one, leave some space, write the other? 2. I think this hyphen thing is found mostly in the English-speaking countries(or at least UK and US), can someone explain why the hyphen? 3. Someone explain me the strange concept of middle name. BTW, I have both last names(Father and then mom, no hyphen). That is the way last names are treated here, and you are recognized by both names. It is now that I have to hyphenate my last names, else I would be called by the wrong name. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2001, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/2 "2001-06-16T23:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\*In this thread, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042) > > There is a talk over which spouse should drop his/her last name and take the one of his/her partner, or if the keep their unmarried last name, or simply hyphenated. Some said that the hyphenated option was cumbersome. > > 1. I wonder, why do they hyphenate the last names? Couldn’t them just write one, leave some space, write the other? \*\* Then it just looks like it’s a middle name. At least that’s the way I think of it. I had a hard time finding recordings of Ralph Vaughan Williams in a record store once. Or finding David Lloyd George in the encyclopedia. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 2. I think this hyphen thing is found mostly in the English-speaking countries(or at least UK and US), can someone explain why the hyphen? \*\* See above. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3. Someone explain me the strange concept of middle name. > > BTW, I have both last names(Father and then mom, no hyphen). That is the way last names are treated here, and you are recognized by both names. It is now that I have to hyphenate my last names, else I would be called by the wrong name. \*\* The middle name gives people a chance to stick a weird family name with someone that they wouldn’t want as a first name. It also helps distinguish between people with more common first and last names. But a lot of people don’t have middle names. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ba8739/32.png) [@No\_Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Bones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/3 "2001-06-17T00:04:20Z")
I kind of like the Icelandic fashion of using first names as the last name of the next generation. Johan’s daughter Inge would be Inge Johansdotter ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/4 "2001-06-17T00:07:59Z")
It’s a good option, No Bones. But I still prefer our way 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/5 "2001-06-17T00:11:15Z")
Living in a Spanish speaking country, as I do, I find the convention of (first name) (father’s name) (mother’s maiden name) to often lead to confusion because: 1. People don’t always write their names this way; often they just use the father’s name; 2. Many people do have middle names as well. So that it can be quite ambiguous, when you see someone referred to as Juan Carlos Gomez, whether “Carlos” is meant to be their middle name or family name. When I am trying to figure out how to alphabetize a list of references written in Spanish, it can be a real guessing game. A hyphen can resolve this ambiguity, and some of my acquaintances do this when publishing in English, especially if their family name is common. Additionally complicating things is the fact that married women may tack “de (husband’s name)” on to their own; or they may simply go by their husband’s name without the “de” (although the former form is the “correct” one). (And I never know what to do about husband’s names that already have a “de” attached: e.g. Maria Consuela Gomez de De Alba?) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/6 "2001-06-17T00:17:23Z")
As for middle name, my first name is the same as my father’s, and my middle name is that of my mother’s father. My father’s name was the same as his father’s, and his middle name the same as _his_ mother’s father. So although we carry on traditional family names, we don’t end up using “Jr.” or “III.” ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/7 "2001-06-17T00:37:41Z")
Colibri, I know of that custom (I am from a Spanish speaking country). Since I have always live in it, I find it easy, and I am not presented with the same difficulties you seem to have passed. True, people usually use just the father’s name. And with the middle name, at least in Spanish it’s a name, not someone’s last name. Which is my confusion, since for me a middle name is if you have a John Michael Smith Jones, Michael would be the middle name, Smith the first last name, and Jones the second last name. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/8 "2001-06-17T00:43:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\*In this thread, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042) > > There is a talk over which spouse should drop his/her last name and take the one of his/her partner, or if the keep their unmarried last name, or simply hyphenated. > > 1. Couldn’t them just write one, leave some space, write the other? > > 2. I think this hyphen thing is found mostly in the English-speaking countries(or at least UK and US), can someone explain why the hyphen? > > \*\* Essentially, in countries where the dominant culture has English roots, people have one and only one family name; traditionally it has been the patrilineal one (wife takes the husband’s name, the children have the father’s name). And the convention, in the US at least, is that only the very last word in the string of names is the family name and therefore the legal surname. Thus when you type in George Herbert Walker Bush, the computer files your document under “Bush”. “Middle” names, as pointed out, are optional and just serve as an extra identifier, a way to honour a relative, claim the advocacy of a particular patron saint, or give the kid an alternative to a truly daft choice of a first name (as in, Starflower Joy Smith, grows up to call herself “S. Joy Smith”). In the West the tradition of an additional name that “tags” you harkens back to Roman times (e.g. Gaius Julius Caesar) In my own culture (Puerto Rican) it is standard practice that the child’s legal surname is two words: the paternal family name, then the maternal family name. Example: I am José R. _Díaz Marrero_ – son of José _Díaz Colón_ and Olga _Marrero Soto_. However, although my surname is “Díaz Marrero,” only the “Díaz” – the patrilineal name – will be passed on to my offspring . Thus strictly speaking my “family” name is “Díaz” and when faced with filling out a form for the US government or a US corporation, I leave it at that – and so such things as my college records in the USA and my Army discharge papers are in the name of “Jose R. Diaz.” jrd ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/9 "2001-06-17T00:51:52Z")
THanks to all for clearing that a little bit. JRD, remember you can stack them all in a row to get Díaz Marrero Colón Soto. At least, that’s what I do. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/10 "2001-06-17T01:48:32Z")
A friend of mine had one of those long last names with lots of z’s, w’s, and y’s. When he got married, to a woman whose last name was Rose, he took her name. Pretty bold move back then (70’s). His family pooped a brick, but they got used to it. 🙂 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/11 "2001-06-17T03:55:13Z")
I dated a guy in Spain named Francisco Javier Pedrosa Galan de Rincon. What would my name have been if I married him? ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/12 "2001-06-17T04:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by No Bones \* > \*\*I kind of like the Icelandic fashion of using first names as the last name of the next generation. > > Johan’s daughter Inge would be > Inge Johansdotter \*\* Is it possible using this system to search for your family history? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/13 "2001-06-17T05:37:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JillGat \* > \*\*I dated a guy in Spain named Francisco Javier Pedrosa Galan de Rincon. What would my name have been if I married him? \*\* He’d probably follow Steve’s (my friend) lead. FrankGat. Hmmm. And then again… Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![jack\_ss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c77e96/32.png) [@jack\_ss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jack_ss)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/14 "2001-06-17T07:49:04Z")
> [@](#): > > In my own culture (Puerto Rican) it is standard practice that the child’s legal surname is two words: the paternal family name, then the maternal family name. Example: I am José R. Díaz Marrero – son of José Díaz Colón and Olga Marrero Soto. > However, although my surname is “Díaz Marrero,” only the “Díaz” – the patrilineal name – will be passed on to my offspring . Thus strictly speaking my “family” name is “Díaz” So that explains why my drill sergeant in basic training told us: “People, you see my name tag says ‘Ruiz-Ruiz’. Only pronounce the first Ruiz. The second Ruiz is silent” ---
**Author:** ![lestrange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aca169/32.png) [@lestrange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lestrange)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/15 "2001-06-17T12:11:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\*In this thread, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=22042) > > There is a talk over which spouse should drop his/her last name and take the one of his/her partner, or if the keep their unmarried last name, or simply hyphenated. Some said that the hyphenated option was cumbersome. > > 1. I wonder, why do they hyphenate the last names? Couldn’t them just write one, leave some space, write the other? > > \*\* In Missouri, the hyphen is required if you don’t want the first last name (!? I’m sure there’s a better way to say that) to be legally considered a middle name, at least when you’re naming babies. I looked into this when I was pregnant with the elder lestrangelet. Baby Girl Lestrange Cameron would have had Baby for a first name, Girl and Lestrange for middle names, and Cameron for a last name. But Baby Girl Lestrange-Cameron would have both last names for her last name. (Apart from that requirement, I was told that I could give the child any last name I wanted.) Other states, of course, may have different policies. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/16 "2001-06-17T13:36:37Z")
My sister did it an interesting way. When she got married, she dropped her middle name entirely (Ann). She then took her last name, and made it her legal middle name…then took her husband’s last name as her own. So she still has both last names, it’s just that legally, her former last name is now her middle name. She just goes by first/last, though, and doesn’t put her old last name anywhere when she signs or writes her name. Jman ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/17 "2001-06-17T16:54:46Z")
JillGat, assuming Pedrosa is his first last name, and let me use for this example Gat as your first last name, it would be Jill Gat de Pedrosa, or if you want to do it rather long: Jill Gat (insert second last name) de Pedrosa Galan Javier is just his middle name. (eh, a name like John, Charles) ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/18 "2001-06-17T17:23:47Z")
Carol Mosely Braun, US ambassador to New Zealand and Samoa, has kept her maiden name Mosely as the last name under which she was alphabetized. After being elected to the US Senate in 1992, the powers that be on Capitol Hill gave Senator-elect Mosely Braun a choice: without a hyphen she could be Senator Mosely or Senator Braun, but if she wished to include both names she had to include a hyphen. Sen. Mosely-Braun opted for the latter. Apparently not as many sticklers on this issue at the [State Department](http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/biography/moseley-b_c_newzealand.html). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/19 "2001-06-17T17:34:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > **Colibri, I know of that custom (I am from a Spanish speaking country). Since I have always live in it, I find it easy, and I am not presented with the same difficulties you seem to have passed.** And why don’t you have such difficulties, may I ask? For example, for Juan Hernán Gómez, how do you know whether Hernán is a middle or a family name if you see the full name in isolation? While most Spanish family names are easily recognizable as such, there are a few that are the same as given names (though this is not nearly as common as in English). And here in Panama there are very sizable minorities of English-speaking (from the West Indies), Chinese, and Lebanese ancestry. It can be very difficult in these cases to figure out which is the family name. When I am asked to fill my full name in on forms, I often find the documents issued as if my middle name were my family name. May I ask which Spanish-speaking country you are from that you do not encounter such problems? Don’t you have any minorities of non-Spanish origin? And how _does_ a woman form her married name if her husband has a compound surname? If María De Alba Gómez marries Hernán De León Gonzáles, does she become María De Alba de De León? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074/20 "2001-06-17T17:58:57Z")
Colibrí, I am from Puerto Rico, yes there are minorities that are not Spanish speaking. But it seems that unlike you, I do not have to constantly keep track of the last names. That’s what I said in my first respond to you(or at least was trying to say). In regards of the Juan Hernán Gómez, well: Hernán is a proper name (example, Hernán Cortés). Hernández is the last name form of Hernán (similar to the Icelandic son of Jon, Jonson) When in doubt…just ask the person. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/last-names-again/69074.md?page=2)