# Late RIP: Stella Liebeck, the McDonald's "Coffee Lady" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 29, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785 "2005-07-29T18:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/1 "2005-07-29T18:42:40Z")
I don’t have a link, but I read recently that she died last August at the age of 92. Her infamous coffee spill occurred 12 years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/2 "2005-07-29T18:43:42Z")
And I meant to post this in MPSIMS, but who cares. . . . ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/3 "2005-07-29T19:56:57Z")
Agreed Earl. I’d add in a few things I hope she died of, but this isn’t the PIT. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/4 "2005-07-29T20:01:38Z")
> [@butler1850](#): > > Agreed Earl. I’d add in a few things I hope she died of, but this isn’t the PIT. The woman got third degree burns for christs sake. There was no earthly reason to serve coffee at the temperature it was being served at (190 degrees!) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/5 "2005-07-29T20:07:06Z")
I don’t know if we really want to get too deep into this since it’s over and done with, but I’ll throw this out for your perusal: [ > [@](#): > > The plaintiffs were apparently able to document 700 cases of burns from McDonald’s coffee over 10 years, or 70 burns per year. But that doesn’t take into account how many cups are sold without incident. A McDonald’s consultant pointed out the 700 cases in 10 years represents just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! For every injury, no matter how severe, 23,999,999 people managed to drink their coffee without any injury whatever. Isn’t that proof that the coffee is not “unreasonably dangerous”? > [@](#): > > Coffee is supposed to be served in the range of 185 degrees! The National Coffee Association recommends coffee be brewed at “between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction” and drunk “immediately”. If not drunk immediately, it should be “maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit”. (Source: NCAUSA.) Exactly what, then, did McDonald’s do wrong? Did it exhibit “willful, wanton, reckless or malicious conduct” – the standard in New Mexico for awarding punitive damages? ]([http://www.stellaawards.com/stella.html](http://www.stellaawards.com/stella.html)) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/6 "2005-07-29T20:07:36Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The woman got third degree burns for christs sake. There was no earthly reason to serve coffee at the temperature it was being served at (190 degrees!) I’ve heard it cited anywhere from 170 to 190. IS 190 unusually hot? What’s the usual serving temperature of coffee? Maybe some people make it different, but mine is always scalding when you first pour it. What’s the usual termperature - 150? 130? 180? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/7 "2005-07-29T20:10:33Z")
For the people who only heard the “Woman got a kabillion dollars because she spilled her own coffee on herself” part of this: [http://www.mastschulz.com/CM/Articles/Articles12.asp](http://www.mastschulz.com/CM/Articles/Articles12.asp) > [@](#): > > A vascular surgeon determined that Ms. Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Ms. Liebeck, who also underwent surgeries to remove her damaged skin and tissue, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonald’s refused. > > … > > Ms. Liebeck filed a lawsuit and McDonald’s was required to turn over documents relating to prior burns by their customers. McDonald’s produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992, including claims that involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Ms. Liebeck’s. > > … > > McDonald’s also admitted that it kept its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit, even though other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees. McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. > > … > > At trial, the jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 for the damages she sustained by the burns. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found that Ms. Liebeck was 20 percent at fault in the spill. (Note: North Carolina does not generally allow a person to recover if they were even only 1% at fault) The jury also decided that McDonald’s should be punished because of their conduct. They reviewed McDonald’s financial statements for an appropriate figure that would hopefully send McDonald’s a message. The jury decided to award Ms. Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonald’s coffee sales. > > The judge later reduced the punitive award to only $480,000 - which was three times Ms. Liebeck’s regular damages – even though the judge called McDonald’s conduct reckless, callous and willful. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/8 "2005-07-29T21:37:55Z")
I wonder just how many other folk got much less serious burns and never claimed, I reckon plenty of us have had mouth scorching from those fruit pie things that seem to be made of molten fruit flavoured tar, and it takes so long to cool down enough to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Ashes\_Ashes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@Ashes\_Ashes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashes_Ashes)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/9 "2005-07-30T06:52:24Z")
You know, my grandfather was burned by some hot coffee. He was in a rest home and had wheeled himself over to get a cup of coffee. The pot closest to him was empty so he reached to get the next one further over. It was not a good idea, he managed to spill it on his legs and sustained some pretty nasty burns. Most healthy young people would not have been burned anywhere near as severely as my grandfather. He was ninety four and had fragile skin. That turned what should have been a burn requiring a little burn ointment into a trip to the hospital and a bit of surgery. He didn’t sue either. He knew good and well coffee was blasted hot and had brought it down on his own fool self, instead of waiting for an attendant. The McDonald’s lady was eighty, and while her skin probably wasn’t as delicate as my grandfather’s at 94, I know from what my 64 yr old mother goes through, 80 has still got to damage easily. I wonder if that was considered during the trial? I don’t think McDonald’s did anything wrong. People can be complete idiots, a momentary lapse in judgement, or simply have a no-fault accident and get hurt from just about anything (think about it-- that little girl died playing Chubby Bunny. Killed by a _marshmallow_!). That McDonald’s served that much coffee and had so few resultant injuries, says to me they were just going about normal business practices. You can be doing something exactly the way you should and somebody’s still going to get hurt. The coffee lady was taking a risk. She knew that coffee was hot. She knew it was a risk to open the cup while it was between her legs. If it’d been up to me, based on what I know of the incident, I’d not have awarded her a dime. But I am sad to hear she’s died. If she actually has. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/10 "2005-07-30T06:56:13Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/11 "2005-07-30T07:39:55Z")
I read some years ago about a couple of scientists who developed the ultimate coffee machine, they spent something like $100K designing it, and one of the things that they said was that if you can _smell_ the coffee as it sat in the pot, then it was _too hot_ because that meant that the elements of coffee which give it it’s flavor were evaporating away. McDonald’s always had a reputation for hot coffee before the woman got burned, and I can remember my parents bitching about how hot the stuff was, when we stopped there for breakfast while travelling. As a coffee addict, I have to say that I **don’t** like blistering hot coffee, I prefer mine at a much cooler temp, where I can pour it into my cup and drink it immediately. The stuff that’s at near boiling when it comes out of the pot always tastes like crap when it cools down to a tolerable temp. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/12 "2005-07-30T08:27:31Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > I read some years ago about a couple of scientists who developed the ultimate coffee machine, they spent something like $100K designing it, and one of the things that they said was that if you can _smell_ the coffee as it sat in the pot, then it was _too hot_ because that meant that the elements of coffee which give it it’s flavor were evaporating away. Come on. I can smell coffee before you’ve even started brewing it. You can smell an open bag of ground coffee from across a room. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/13 "2005-07-30T08:36:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Come on. I can smell coffee before you’ve even started brewing it. You can smell an open bag of ground coffee from across a room. Yes, and if you leave that bag open for too long, it’ll ruin the coffee. They vacuum pack coffee to keep air out of it so it’ll last longer on the shelf. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/14 "2005-07-30T12:35:14Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > As a coffee addict, I have to say that I **don’t** like blistering hot coffee, I prefer mine at a much cooler temp, where I can pour it into my cup and drink it immediately. There seems to be a perfect temperature to drink coffee, and finding it every once in a while is like finding a $20 bill in your coat pocket. It’s hot, just a _teeny_ bit too hot to drink, enough to toast your throat and mouth when you gulp it down, but not burn. Every once in a while my coffee is that perfect temperature, and I gulp it down like it’s going out of style. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-rip-stella-liebeck-the-mcdonalds-coffee-lady/314785/15 "2005-07-30T12:56:10Z")
This woman had the courage to take a stand against a HUGE corporation and beat them down. A little old lady. That took balls. She is a quiet hero, IMHO.