# Late Stage Capitalism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2025, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725 "2025-01-08T12:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/61 "2025-01-09T15:41:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’ve always seen it as Marxist-derived, it seems based on their whole idea that there’s some inevitable direction to history. Those are the sort of people I first ran into who used it, for one thing. I don’t buy it because I don’t think capitalism has “stages” in the first place, nor is oligarchy capitalism-exclusive in the first place. The Gilded Age happened, _then_ capitalism got reined in rather than progressing to further “stages” and some inevitable collapse. > > The world doesn’t have a narrative arc. I believe the term is _materialist dialectic_. And yeah, it’s utter horseshit. It’s also the reason why many Marxists are Accelerationists. Fascism is seen as a necessary stepping stone between the destruction of the bourgeoisie democracy and the establishment of a proletariat ruled paradise. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s humanly impossible to contribute so much more to society than the average person that you deserve _billions_ of dollars; and looking at actual billionaires most of them are incompetents and parasites. And then there’s the issue of widespread poverty and general social decay due to most money being siphoned off the the ultrawealthy. But billionaires aren’t billionaires because of their personal contributions. They are almost always billionaires because they own a large company. And it’s certainly possible for a large company to contribute billions of dollars’ worth of utility to society. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/62 "2025-01-09T15:47:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What is the name of this terrible app? It was one of MoviePass’s desperate attempts to avoid bankruptcy. Too bad (so sad) for them, they did it in 2020. That wasn’t the best year for movie goers and folks who market to them. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/63 "2025-01-09T15:49:49Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > The graph shows the percentage of wealth held by the top 10% across the indicated timespan; it seems like the time before the black plague in the 1350s was at maybe at a marginally higher level of inequalit Either- I am wrong about the black plague ending feudalism Or We are using two very different definitions of feudalism. By my understanding, while democracy didn’t suddenly break out after the black plague, there were not enough serfs left alive to sustain the system. Instead of being worthless and very replaceable, humans who did labor were in great demand. Things changed. if my understanding and definition are correct, anything that happened after the plague is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/64 "2025-01-09T15:54:51Z")
> [@Looking for opinions and information on Movie Pass](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looking-for-opinions-and-information-on-movie-pass/793886/434): > > I’m awaiting their new ad campaign telling people now is the ideal time to sign up. It’s discussed toward the end of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/65 "2025-01-09T16:18:06Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > I would argue that this actually matters much less in modern America than in most of human history. Under the feudal systmem […] > > We are actually living in less egalitarian times now than we did during at least a good part of feudalism No, we aren’t. It doesn’t matter if Lord Farquad is 2X richer than Johnny the Peasant, or 100X richer, or 10,000,000,000 richer. Under the social dynamics of Feudalism, Lord Farquad is a noble and Johnny is a peasant, and _nothing can ever change that_. The measure of social status in our capitalist society is, in large part, wealth. But to compare the status of peasants and lords based only on how much wealth they controlled is myopic, because lords were free people with agency while serfs were bound to the land, barely more than property. Even if Johnny Peasant accumulated wealth by moving to a town and becoming a merchant, he would never be the equal of a lord - even if the Lord was impoverished and Johnny was financing the king’s war. That’s why, once the Burghers had enough influence, they pushed for the abolition of Feudalism. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/66 "2025-01-09T16:20:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? If I provide the factory and the raw materials, _of course I am producing something of value_. If I wasn’t there, you wouldn’t make any hats. Would society be better off then? > > And there’s something else of value being provided: assumption of risk. If that’s fall out of fashion a year into my new business and thus it fails, I lose everything I invested in the business, but you get to keep making your stable paycheck for as long as the business remains open; and unlike me, you’re not saddled by any debt when it fails, so you can go make shoes or cloaks or oven mitts at another company instead. You’re not producing anything of value, you’re just providing me with access to the facilities and raw materials which you acquired at some time in the past. If those facilities and raw materials were owned by the community, hats would still be produced and all the workers would be making $15 per hour. If hats go out of fashion, the community could democratically decide what to produce instead. The only thing that allows you to insert yourself into the process is that you have access to capital, and your workers don’t. Capitalism is, literally, wage slavery. Sure, you can “freely choose” not to work for some particular capitalist, but if you don’t have substantial wealth of your own, you’re going to have to work for one of them. If you don’t want to take part in the system at all, you starve to death. (Of course, in advanced societies, you won’t actually starve to death, but that only indicates that those societies aren’t fully capitalist; democratic struggles have led to the passage of laws which partially ameliorate the cruelest features of capitalism). By your standards, chattel slavery could be described as a “mutually beneficial relationship”. You pick cotton for me, and I won’t kill you. Win-win! ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/67 "2025-01-09T16:20:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Either- > > I am wrong about the black plague ending feudalism > > Or > > We are using two very different definitions of feudalism. My understanding always was that feudalism [lasted until ~1500](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism): > **Feudalism** , also known as the **feudal system** , was a combination of legal, economic, military, cultural, and political customs that flourished in [medieval Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) from the 9th to 15th centuries. And even so, it’s only the very top of the graph that is higher than the 2010 value, although of course I don’t know if the preceding was just a momentary dip. Still, it seems the income inequality is broadly comparable, and not a ‘much larger gap’ in feudalism, at least regarding the data we have. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/68 "2025-01-09T16:21:21Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > What is the name of this terrible app? > > It was one of MoviePass’s desperate attempts to avoid bankruptcy. Too bad (so sad) for them, they did it in 2020. That wasn’t the best year for movie goers and folks who market to them. In other words, they tried to force consumers to look at the phone during ads, and consumers responded by no longer using their service? Sounds like a win for capitalism! ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/69 "2025-01-09T16:23:19Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Still, it seems the income inequality is broadly comparable, and not a ‘much larger gap’ in feudalism, at least regarding the data we have. By the time I got here, **Babale** had already addressed this. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/70 "2025-01-09T16:28:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > > Still, it seems the income inequality is broadly comparable, and not a ‘much larger gap’ in feudalism, at least regarding the data we have. > > By the time I got here, **Babale** had already addressed this It seems like @Half_Man_Half_Wit is saying, “the net worth of Elon Musk vs the net worth of his janitor is X; the net worth of a medieval king vs the net worth of a peasant is Y; X\>Y; therefore inequality today is worse than inequality in the middle ages”. But this is nonsense. Elon Musk can’t have his janitor executed for wearing clothes that Elon considers too fancy for a janitor; medieval kings did, at times, do exactly that. Social status wasn’t based on wealth in the middle ages, so social inequality was far greater in the middle ages regardless of wealth inequality. Also, if we are calculating the wealth of Jeff Bezos by including the value of Amazon, the company he controls, then when we calculate the wealth of the King of France we probably need to include not just the king’s personal estate but the value of everything under the control of the crown of France. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/71 "2025-01-09T16:49:27Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s part of the problem right there. It’s GOT a definition, and it’s a strictly economic one. If other people want to muddy the water through ignorance or their own axe to grind, that’s a huge problem. I agree with this. But let’s not ignore that there are two sides arguing otherwise. One side is arguing capitalism is morally bad. But there’s also a side that’s arguing capitalism is morally good. And both sides are wrong. Capitalism is an economic system that works. That’s it. It has no inherent moral value and the results that capitalism produces are not going to be inherently good or inherently bad. So, yes, we should reject arguments that say we should abolish capitalism because it is morally wrong. But we should also reject arguments that say we should let capitalism be used without restrictions because anything that results from capitalism is good. This argument is just as nonsensical as the first one. Capitalism needs to be regulated in order to keep it from being used in ways that harm society. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/72 "2025-01-09T16:53:32Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > My understanding always was that feudalism [lasted until ~1500](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism): I think the general historical consensus is that European feudalism lasted until 1861, when Tsar Alexander ended serfdom in Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/73 "2025-01-09T16:56:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > > > > Still, it seems the income inequality is broadly comparable, and not a ‘much larger gap’ in feudalism, at least regarding the data we have. > > > > By the time I got here, **Babale** had already addressed this > > It seems like @Half_Man_Half_Wit is saying, “the net worth of Elon Musk vs the net worth of his janitor is X; the net worth of a medieval king vs the net worth of a peasant is Y; X\>Y; therefore inequality today is worse than inequality in the middle ages”. I’m mainly addressing the point made early on: > [@DocCathode](#): > > Feudalism had a much larger gap between rich and poor. That wealth gap is at the very least not that much bigger than it is today. But also regarding social mobility, things are far less clear-cut than one might assume. It’s rather difficult to track, but one approach is measuring the distribution of surnames as a proxy of whether there is any diffusion between classes. For England, this yields data going back to the 11th century, with [rather less of a change](https://hceconomics.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/file_uploads/Clark_SurnamesandtheLawsofSocialMobility.pdf) than one might expect: > This implies that rates of social mobility in medieval England were as high as they > are now in England. Anyway, I’m not interested in arguing that we’re no better off today than we were during feudal times. If I had to pick an era to live in between these two, I’d pick the present without hesitation. What is really worrisome isn’t necessarily where we are, but where we seem to be headed. Still, though, I find it intriguing that many of the ‘obvious’ benefits of our present age and economic system, on inspection, turn out to be more muddled than one might expect. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/74 "2025-01-09T17:10:37Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > As for “late stage capitalism,” this was talked about 40 years ago in my direct, personal experience. As one colleague remarked then, “what if this isn’t late stage capitalism? What if it’s just getting started?” > > Or as the late great Dave van Ronk put it, “the left is always predicting the end of capitalism, and of course they’re right. Getting the timing correct is the hard part…” During the Great Depression, and for many decades afterwards, there was a widespread belief (which included many intellectuals) that the Depression was caused by “capitalism.” Today we know that’s not true; most economists today agree it was due to bad policies put forth by the Federal Reserve. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/75 "2025-01-09T17:57:19Z")
Capitalism is generally a good system, pretty compatible with democracy and the maintenance of civil liberties (someone WILL want to argue this point, please fuck off in advance) but left unchecked becomes toxic and exploitative to an unbearable degree. Right now we’re seeing a lurch towards its worst elements, that of those benefiting the most using their wealth and power primarily to further increase their wealth and power with little consideration for the rest of us. Elon Musk has $400 billion with which to purchase legislation for his own personal benefit. Our votes are increasingly powerless to compete with that and it’s getting later all the time. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/76 "2025-01-09T18:01:49Z")
I’m inclined to agree with this. And somehow the likes of Musk seems to have convinced a lot of regular people that they (the Oligarchs) aren’t the problem. If that doesn’t change we may be in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/77 "2025-01-09T18:06:05Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’m mainly addressing the point made early on: > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > Feudalism had a much larger gap between rich and poor. > > That wealth gap is at the very least not that much bigger than it is today. You are not addressing the point _at all_, because the gap between a king, a lord, a burgher, and a peasant had _very little to do_ with how many gold coins each of them had. And when that became more important, _Feudalism ended_, because as a system it relied on the inherent, insurmountable gap between the mobility and the peasantry. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/78 "2025-01-09T18:15:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You are not addressing the point _at all_, because the gap between a king, a lord, a burgher, and a peasant had _very little to do_ with how many gold coins each of them had. Maybe what was _meant_ was a gap in power, but the way it was framed was in terms of wealth, which, not being able to read people’s minds, is what I addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/79 "2025-01-09T18:20:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Today we know that’s not true; most economists today agree it was due to bad policies put forth by the Federal Reserve. I hardly think that’s a consensus. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725/80 "2025-01-09T18:32:44Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Maybe what was _meant_ was a gap in power, but the way it was framed was in terms of wealth, which, not being able to read people’s minds, is what I addressed. Let’s look at the quote in context. This the bit after the sentence you quoted. > [@DocCathode](#): > > The poor were clearly and obviously oppressed. It was a massively unjust system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/late-stage-capitalism/1012725.md?page=5)