# Lateral Thinking Puzzles - third time is best! **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [July 18, 2023, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214 "2023-07-18T13:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 129
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2561 "2024-09-27T11:51:51Z")
Hmm, was it something to do with the words he used? His hands? The way he wrote? The cards? ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2562 "2024-09-27T11:55:25Z")
OK, so the magician wrote something on a piece of paper, wadded it up so people couldn’t see what was written on it, tossed it to a random volunteer, and told the (same?) volunteer to think of the first [something] that came to mind, call it out, and then open the paper to see what was written on it? Do I have that sequence correct? Could the trick have failed if the volunteer made quirkier-than-usual choices (e.g. thinking of an eagle in Djibouti instead of an elephant in Denmark?) Or was it more or less fail-safe? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2563 "2024-09-27T12:01:11Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Hmm, was it something to do with the words he used? > > His hands? > > The way he wrote? > > The cards There were no cards; and I believe that the way he’d written was irrelevant, as long as it was legible when uncrumpled; and that, after tossing the crumpled-up ball of paper to a random spectator, he could’ve kept his hands motionless once she made it (a) to the stage, and (b) nowhere near him in general or his hands in particular… …which, granted, is when he started using words to have her call out her choice, because she otherwise wouldn’t have really known what to do next. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2564 "2024-09-27T12:04:08Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > OK, so the magician wrote something on a piece of paper, wadded it up so people couldn’t see what was written on it, tossed it to a random volunteer, and told the (same?) volunteer to think of the first [something] that came to mind, call it out, and then open the paper to see what was written on it? Do I have that sequence correct? Yup. > [@](#): > > Could the trick have failed if the volunteer made quirkier-than-usual choices (e.g. thinking of an eagle in Djibouti instead of an elephant in Denmark?) Or was it more or less fail-safe? Far from being fail-safe, the trick would not have succeeded if the volunteer had made a different choice. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2565 "2024-09-27T12:12:40Z")
Do you believe he implanted the choice into the volunteer’s mind? This is a technique some magicians claim to be able to do - i.e. Derren Brown. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2566 "2024-09-27T12:15:10Z")
Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2567 "2024-09-27T12:22:53Z")
Was the volunteer “primed” in some way to make it extremely likely that they would make a particular choice? (Like, I dunno, “think of a famous American city,” but the magician’s patter had alreadly included a seemingly-casual mention of a dizen things associated with San Francisco.) Were numbers involved? (E.g., “think of a random number,” then ask them to do half a dozen calculations with that number, but this particular sequence of calculations always causes them to _end up_ at a specific number regardless of what they started with.) Was the volunteer asked to make a seemingly-free choice, but the available options were actually more restricted than it might appear (e.g., there is really only one well-known X beginning with letter Y)? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2568 "2024-09-27T12:34:09Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Was the volunteer “primed” in some way to make it extremely likely that they would make a particular choice? (Like, I dunno, “think of a famous American city,” but the magician’s patter had alreadly included a seemingly-casual mention of a dizen things associated with San Francisco.) Nothing specific to prime it — though, as was said, “elephant” would presumably come to mind more often than “eagle,” even without first droning on and on about stuff associated with elephants. > [@](#): > > Were numbers involved? (E.g., “think of a random number,” then ask them to do half a dozen calculations with that number, but this particular sequence of calculations always causes them to _end up_ at a specific number regardless of what they started with.) No, nothing like that. > [@](#): > > Was the volunteer asked to make a seemingly-free choice, but the available options were actually more restricted than it might appear (e.g., there is really only one well-known X beginning with letter Y)? No, the prompt was “call out the first color that comes to mind.” There’s not just one well-known answer; you already know red and blue and yellow and green and orange and purple and so on. But (as with elephants and eagles), it’s fair to say that people are more likely to say red or blue than orange or purple. ---
**Author:** ![Bicycle\_Bill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bicycle_bill/32/6208_2.png) [@Bicycle\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bicycle_Bill)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2569 "2024-09-27T13:22:57Z")
Two performances, huh? Was the same color selected at each performance? And if the same color was not selected at each performance, did the magician accept the audience participant’s selection at each performance once the color _ **had** _ been chosen and called out? Or did he say something like, “OK, we’ll forget about _(that color)_” and ask for another (seemingly) random choice in one of them? _ **-“BB”-** _ ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2570 "2024-09-27T14:15:04Z")
Was the question something that sounded like it would have more than one answer, but really doesn’t? Or if it does, few people are likely to know any other answers besides the obvious, like “Name a country that begins with D.” ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2571 "2024-09-27T14:49:39Z")
I apologize if this has been asked, but did the original trick have multiple outs and the second performance made it clear the multiple paths that were available? Pretend psychic power tricks work this way, giving multiple outs for the magician. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2572 "2024-09-27T15:41:17Z")
> [@Bicycle\_Bill](#): > > And if the same color was not selected at each performance, did the magician accept the audience participant’s selection at each performance once the color _ **had** _ been chosen and called out? Or did he say something like, “OK, we’ll forget about _(that color)_” and ask for another (seemingly) random choice in one of them? Just to make sure we’re on the same page: if you asked people who saw the second performance what their favorite trick was, they might respond with a quick “oh, probably that bit where the coin floated into the air” — and if you asked “what about when he predicted which color the volunteer would pick,” they’d ask _what the heck you were talking about,_ because the magician didn’t do that trick at the second performance. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2573 "2024-09-27T15:44:39Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Was the question something that sounded like it would have more than one answer, but really doesn’t? Or if it does, few people are likely to know any other answers besides the obvious, like “Name a country that begins with D. The participant was asked to “call out the first color that comes to mind.” I believe people are likely to know red and orange and yellow and green and blue and violet and so on. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2574 "2024-09-27T15:48:16Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I apologize if this has been asked, but did the original trick have multiple outs and the second performance made it clear the multiple paths that were available? I don’t believe that’s been asked yet, and, well, yeah, that’s pretty much it. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2575 "2024-09-27T16:14:44Z")
Did the two tricks start in the same way, and then deviate depending on what choices were made? ---
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2576 "2024-09-27T16:21:15Z")
From your best understanding of how the trick worked, if the mark had chosen a really really obscure colour, would the trick still work? (Say Chartreuse and the magician doesn’t even know what colour that is) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2577 "2024-09-27T16:23:19Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > From your best understanding of how the trick worked, if the mark had chosen a really really obscure colour, would the trick still work? (Say Chartreuse and the magician doesn’t even know what colour that is) It wouldn’t have even worked if the mark had chosen “yellow.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2578 "2024-09-27T16:28:45Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Did the two tricks start in the same way, and then deviate depending on what choices were made What two tricks are we talking about? In the first performance, he did the trick with the colors and he also did that trick with the coin I just alluded to; and, in the second, he did the same trick with the coin and didn’t do the trick with the colors. And, both times, he did maybe half-a-dozen other tricks I haven’t alluded to — the one with the fire, the one with the duck, and so on — and the trick with the coin (and the one with the fire, and the one with the duck) didn’t really have any deviations from one performance to the next, and didn’t clue me in on how the trick with the colors had been done. ---
**Author:** ![dirtball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dirtball/32/18772_2.png) [@dirtball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dirtball)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2579 "2024-09-27T16:38:18Z")
So, to be clear: The first night, he did the trick with the colors, and it was successful. Is that correct? The second night, he didn’t do the color trick, but the show included some other trick that failed. Is that correct? But something about the second-night failure provided the vital clue to understanding how the trick with colors was done. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214/2580 "2024-09-27T16:42:41Z")
> [@dirtball](#): > > So, to be clear: The first night, he did the trick with the colors, and it was successful. Is that correct? > The second night, he didn’t do the color trick, but the show included some other trick that failed. Is that correct? > But something about the second-night failure provided the vital clue to understanding how the trick with colors was done. Is that correct? I didn’t say that some other trick failed on the second night. Looking back, I don’t believe there was some other trick that failed on the second night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214.md?page=128) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lateral-thinking-puzzles-third-time-is-best/987214.md?page=130)