# Latin in Catholic services--making a comeback? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958 "2018-12-31T04:06:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/21 "2019-01-01T02:14:00Z")
> [@JohnGalt](#): > > This. And as jrd mentioned in the next post, everyone I talk with would like the word consubstantial and the “under my roof” changes to go back to something easier to say and understand. Yeah, that’s one change that really puzzled me. The other ones I noticed, I understand. But changing “one in being with” to “consubstantial with” I don’t understand. It’s just such a huge swing in diction that it sticks out like a sore thumb. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/22 "2019-01-01T02:14:02Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > There is a small group of Catholics devoted to the Mass being said in Latin not the vernacular. There is no issue with this per the Church. But it is always a small group, because, duh, nobody understands what is being said. I’m not sure I would describe it as a small group ([link 1](https://www.latinmassdir.org/country/us/), [link 2](http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm)). And that’s just the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/23 "2019-01-01T02:19:43Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > They’re welcome down the street with me. Liturgy’s the same, but more tolerance of women and the gays so it’s a better environment for children. However Swedish, Norwegian, and German food sucks, so go back for the St Joseph’s Table. There’s Catholic parishes that tolerate women and gays out there. I got married in the Church. I won’t name the parish, but I told the priest that I wasn’t exactly a believer and did the whole “culturally Catholic” thing and said something about respecting the religion and not taking Communion. He said something to the effect of Jesus can handle it, and said, go ahead, take Communion. I’ve attended mass over a hundred times over the last 20 years, but have never taken Communion except for that time. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/24 "2019-01-01T02:22:47Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I’m not sure I would describe it as a small group ([link 1](https://www.latinmassdir.org/country/us/), [link 2](http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm)). And that’s just the U.S. That is, really, a tiny group. I see four parishes there in Chicago. The Archdiocese has something like 300+ parishes. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/25 "2019-01-01T02:31:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That is, really, a tiny group. I see four parishes there in Chicago. The Archdiocese has something like 300+ parishes. ETA: Sorry, I was only counting Chicago proper. So like 11 masses out of 336 parishes in the Archdiocese, or just over 3% that have Latin masses, and one of them is discontinued, and three of them, if I’m reading right, are just once a month. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/26 "2019-01-01T02:32:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _Latin is a dead language. > It died across the sea. > It killed the ancient Romans, > And now it’s killing me._ > > MS found in a _Boy’s Life_ magazine at a Goodwill store _c._ 1965 _rident stolidi verba Latina_ – Ovid > [@JRDelirious](#): > > modern Spanish retains the thou/thee/thy second-person-intimate form of address (which is how the classic liturgy addresses God) Latin does not have any intimate form of address. Any intimate/distant aspect would be purely a function of the Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/27 "2019-01-01T03:32:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And which in Latin is “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa”. Which is how that particular Latinism made its way into English usage. > [@dropzone](#): > > And several times into my posts. Gotta use it or you’ll lose it. 😃 Reading columns by Ann Landers and/or Dear Abby was also a common way of getting the phrase into your lexicon. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/28 "2019-01-01T03:39:57Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > 😕 But Consubstantiation is heresy! I miss things being heretical. It made going to a Lutheran church feel daring. Word. I miss blasphemy being a real thing, too. Oh, wait, it’s the other thing. I _don’t_ miss blasphemy being a real thing. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/29 "2019-01-01T03:45:03Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > They’re welcome down the street with me. Liturgy’s the same, but more tolerance of women and the gays so it’s a better environment for children. However Swedish, Norwegian, and German food sucks, so go back for the St Joseph’s Table. 😕 Huh? Have you _tried_ Swedish meatballs? Or sauerbraten? You must have gotten to the lutefisk table first, and it ruined everything for you. Check out Æbleskiver. You’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/30 "2019-01-01T03:52:32Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Some notes: > The bureaucracy of the Vatican would like all the vernacular translations to agree as closely as possible with the Latin version (which itself is post Vatican II). Some languages (such as Spanish) turned out to be closer to the Latin, some farther away. Thus in English, for example, the Nicene Creed underwent some significant changes a couple years ago. Instead of beginning “We believe” it now is supposed to be “I believe”, which is the direct Latin translation of “Credo”. All these language changes are decided upon by committees of old geezers in robes. > > There is a small group of Catholics devoted to the Mass being said in Latin not the vernacular. There is no issue with this per the Church. But it is always a small group, because, duh, nobody understands what is being said. Some but not all of these folks want the Church to repeal all the Vatican II reforms. They are not all old by any means. But they are all very very **conservative**. Uhh, I think the word you’re looking for is _reactionary_. And when did the English version of the Nicene Creed begin with “WE believe?” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/31 "2019-01-01T04:01:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There’s Catholic parishes that tolerate women and gays out there. I got married in the Church. I won’t name the parish, but I told the priest that I wasn’t exactly a believer and did the whole “culturally Catholic” thing and said something about respecting the religion and not taking Communion. He said something to the effect of Jesus can handle it, and said, go ahead, take Communion. I’ve attended mass over a hundred times over the last 20 years, but have never taken Communion except for that time. Same here. Maybe closer to ten times (over the course of thirty-five years), but I still don’t join the procession to the altar rail. In fact, at my mother’s funeral nine years ago, my brother actually shocked me when he accepted Communion, and later, responded to my inquiry that he no longer identified as a Catholic. Dunno what that says about me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/32 "2019-01-01T04:24:05Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And when did the English version of the Nicene Creed begin with “WE believe?” This is an interesting question to me, because it came up within the last month here on the Dope (in re: the Apostles’ Creed), and it’s always been “We believe” for the Nicene as far as I remember (and “I believe” for the Apostles’), since my church-going years in ths 80s onward. But Wikipedia seemed to suggest that a lot of Catholic parishes say “I believe.” Not here, as far as I remember. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/33 "2019-01-01T04:30:01Z")
I learned it as “I believe”. Chicago, 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/34 "2019-01-01T04:49:31Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > This is an interesting question to me, because it came up within the last month here on the Dope (in re: the Apostles’ Creed), and it’s always been “We believe” for the Nicene as far as I remember (and “I believe” for the Apostles’), since my church-going years in ths 80s onward. But Wikipedia seemed to suggest that a lot of Catholic parishes say “I believe.” Not here, as far as I remember. It was "We believe from 1973 to 2011 according to the Wiki article. I know that it was “We believe” for as long as I can remember, but I’m also not sure how well I remember that sort of detail from before the age of 10. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/35 "2019-01-01T05:35:34Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It was "We believe from 1973 to 2011 according to the Wiki article. I know that it was “We believe” for as long as I can remember, but I’m also not sure how well I remember that sort of detail from before the age of 10. Then that sounds about right. My biggest Catholic-church go-every-week years were from 1980 to about 1993. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/36 "2019-01-01T06:03:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Huh? Have you _tried_ Swedish meatballs? Or sauerbraten? You must have gotten to the lutefisk table first, and it ruined everything for you. Swedish meatballs are plain meatballs in canned gravy. Sauerbraten is good. Lutefisk is not–have you ever been in the house when Grandma made it? German/Irish Dad nearly threw his MIL out of the house for that crime. Æbleskiver? Fried wads of dough are in my wheelhouse but I think Danes are Missouri Synod so I haven’t had them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/37 "2019-01-01T23:06:30Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I’m not sure I would describe it as a small group ([link 1](https://www.latinmassdir.org/country/us/), [link 2](http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm)). And that’s just the U.S. Well, the U.S. plus Canada. And given that it appears to run about four to eight parishes per diocese and there are often over a thousand parishes in a diocese and that most of those parishes provide only a single Latin mass per week, (with quite a few offering one only on special occasions while a much tinier number offer it daily), I would say that “small” adequately identifies the group. I would not claim that the demand is marginal, but it hardly rises to the level of large. And in terms of “resurgence,” when some of its advocates indicate a serious misunderstanding, using such terms as “protestantization,” I really see no indication of a resurgence. There will always be folks who prefer the beauty of the sung version, (I really love Gregorian Chant and Organum), and some who simply want to indicate displeasure with Vatican II, and a miniscule number who actually understand enough Latin to desire to worship in that language, but there is no great surge of people who wish to take the whole church back to 1960. (I have no problem with the mass in Latin as long as it follows the _Novus Ordo_ of 1972 and does not fall back into the errors to which the Tridentine mass tends to encourage some.) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/38 "2019-01-01T23:16:40Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Uhh, I think the word you’re looking for is _reactionary_. > > \ Sorry, that was the word I was looking for all right. However some people who go for the Latin Mass seem to be more into the aesthetics of it than any other reason. They are the same people who wish for more Gregorian chant, incense, soaring churches made of stone, and a lot of kneeling. There is something to that. If it wasn’t so connected to rigidity and punitiveness I myself might be on board. As it is, I seem to be becoming an Episcopalian. Most of the ritual, little of the misogyny and homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/39 "2019-01-01T23:24:58Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > 😕 But Consubstantiation is heresy! I miss things being heretical. It made going to a Lutheran church feel daring. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Word. I miss blasphemy being a real thing, too. > > Oh, wait, it’s the other thing. I _don’t_ miss blasphemy being a real thing. Not quite. Consubstantiation was word assigned (not by Luther) to the Platonic Luther’s description of the Eucharist in opposition to the Aristotelian Transubstantiation. The words contrast the philosophical identification of the bread and wine that has been consecrated with Transubstantiation indicating that the the (Aristotelian) _substances_ of bread and wine become (note the _trans-_) the Body and Blood while Consubstatiation holds that the they remain bread and wine in which the Body and Blood are joined with (_con-_) bread and wine. In the newer formulation of the Creed, Consubstantial has no relation to the Eucharist, but indicates that the Father and Son are of one divine substance. It was certainly jarring to hear, but it is not heresy. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958/40 "2019-01-01T23:30:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > there are often over a thousand parishes in a diocese Not sure how I typed that. The figures usually run in the low hundreds, not thousands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-in-catholic-services-making-a-comeback/826958.md?page=3)