# Latin pronunciation and Newton's "Principia"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 25, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097 "2001-11-25T01:43:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/21 "2001-11-26T19:28:05Z")
Okay, I can buy the various pronunciations of Principia (I have usually heard it as prinKipia, so I will stick with that).
But how phonetically were Caesar and Cicero’s names pronounced? According to earlier posts, Caesar would have a hard c and an accent on the first syllable - but how would the “ae” be pronounced in Classical Latin?
KAY-sar? KI-sar?
And Cicero would have hard c’s and be accented on the middle syllable, so it would be:
kih-KARE-o? ky-KARE-o? kih-KER-o?
thanks for the help.
---
### Author:  [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/22 "2001-11-26T20:44:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by WordMan \*
> \*\*
> But how phonetically were Caesar and Cicero’s names pronounced? According to earlier posts, Caesar would have a hard c and an accent on the first syllable - but how would the “ae” be pronounced in Classical Latin?
>
> KAY-sar? KI-sar?
>
> And Cicero would have hard c’s and be accented on the middle syllable, so it would be:
>
> kih-KARE-o? ky-KARE-o? kih-KER-o?
>
> thanks for the help. \*\*
Although the populace never spoke Classical Latin around town, at home, etc, an interesting thing to note is that the dipthong “ae” generally became the “Spanish e” (/e/) sound in Vulgar Latin, hence you get the name “Cesar” (accent on the e). I dont have my books here but it in Vulgar Latin, IIRC, “ae” was pronounced like the i in “right” (in SAMPA: /aj/).
Also, in VL, c before i or e became palatalized to /ts/, so in VL cicero might have been said as tsee-tsay-ro /tsitsero/. This eventually evolved into the “ch” (/tS/) sound in Italian, and the “th” (/T/) sound in Spanish (Castilian…Latin American Spanish pronunciation is probably from Andalusian Spanish which uses the s sound).
I hope i’m correct here ;). I’m at work, and i’m fairly certain what i’ve written is correct. I’ll probably check my books when i get home.
---
### Author:  [@nonsmokingmirror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonsmokingmirror)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2001, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/23 "2001-11-26T23:04:37Z")
Doobieous is entirely correct.
For those who really want to know a LOT about the letter C, it has its origins in the Phoenician letter Gimel (where the meaning of the lettername is camel, and the pronunciation is a hard G as in gum), which the Greeks, when they adopted the alphabet (around 700BC), called gamma (looks like a y in lowercase (ã), uppercase looks like an upsidedown L (Ã)), also pronounced as a hard /G/.
Now, the Etruscans (a people living in central Italy, controlling modern Tuscany and, for lengthy periods, Rome – they spoke a language that is only partially deciphered and not convincingly related to any other known tongue) borrowed it around 600-500 BC, but it so happened that in their language, there was no sound like the hard /G/ in gum, so they just used the letters à (gamma) and K interchangeably to represent the sound /K/, coming to prefer the former…
Only thing was, their form of the letter gamma was curved, and in fact looked like this: C.
So when the Romans started writing their own language (Latin) in about the 4th century BC, they had a choice of two letters (C and K) both with the sound /K/, but no letter to represent the hard /G/ sound, which DID exist in Latin.
So for a while to represent the sound G they used the letter C… but they were clever buggers and eventually added a small stroke to the letter C to make sure that people knew it was to be pronounced as a /G/ instead.
Meanwhile, they were pretty much discarding the letter K, which survives only in a few words like Kalendae… but during all this time they were continuing to pronounce C as a hard /K/ sound.
This is where Doobieous’s part of the story comes in… for those who want a more detailed account of the further exciting adventures of the letter C, I’ll give you my address and you can mail me $10.
Though I will mention that the only modern European languages where the letter C retains its classical Latin pronunciation are Irish, Welsh and Scots Gaelic. We Celts don’t mess with a good thing.
---
### Author:  [@nonsmokingmirror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonsmokingmirror)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2001, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/24 "2001-11-26T23:25:14Z")
So anyway, the full title (Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica) could be pronounced correctly in any of these ways:
Classical –
P-Hilosop-heeai natoorahlis prinkipiah mat-hematika
(where p-h is pronounced like the ph in taPHouse, and t-h like the th in poTHead, NOT like an f and a th)
Church (Italianate) –
Filosohfiae natoorahlis princhipia matematika
English –
Fillosofiyay natyurahlis (OR natyuraelis) prinsippiuh mathematikuh
Um, I hope that clears things up.
---
### Author:  [@SDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDP)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/25 "2001-11-26T23:34:54Z")
I’ve studied Latin for 4+ years now, and have a rough understanding of how the various pronunciation systems evolved and were spoken. I think Newton would have pronounced the “c” in _Principia_ as we pronounce an “s” today. Furthermore, I have always heard it pronounced that way; I have never heard it pronounced with a hard “c.” As for Cicero and Caesar, in the theoretical perfect pronunciation of around 80 BC to 50 BC in Rome (which is what most people tend to learn as “classical”), all “c’s” would be hard and the “ae” would be pronounced as we pronounce the word “eye.”
---
### Author:  [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2001, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/26 "2001-11-26T23:43:34Z")
This question first came to my attention when I heard Sam Waterson pronounce it with the hard “k” sound in a History Channel commercial.
For me, it’s simply a matter that “PRIN-SI-PEA” sounds mathmetical and elegant. “PRIN- **KIP** -EA” sounds like a character from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!
---
### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [December 1, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/27 "2001-12-01T19:59:57Z")
Thanks for the in-depth responses, everyone!
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [December 1, 2001, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/28 "2001-12-01T20:58:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> But how phonetically were Caesar and Cicero’s names pronounced? According to earlier posts, Caesar would have a hard c and an accent on the first syllable - but how would the “ae” be pronounced in Classical Latin?
>
> KAY-sar? KI-sar?
Looking at “outside sources” (in this case, the New Testament in Greek) we find that the _title_ Caesar was rendered [sym]kaisaros[/sym] (_kaisaros_). When Julius Caesar was assasinated in 44 BCE, Caesar was merely a family name. It only made the transition from “those guys who are in charge who are named Caesar” to “the guy who is in charge is a Caesar” over the following decades. Yet, by 80 CE (by which time Matthew and Luke are usually considered to have been written), the name was showing up as a title in Greek, spelled as shown above. This would tend to indicate that the name came over without much change into Greek, and that the pronunciation would most likely have been
**KI sar**.
---
### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [December 2, 2001, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/29 "2001-12-02T01:20:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Kimstu \*
> Caesar and Cicero, however, get the soft “c”.
I don’t know about “Cicero” but it is my understanding that “Caesar” is pronounced “Kaisar” - or close to it.
---
### Author:  [@mok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mok)
#### Post date: [December 2, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/30 "2001-12-02T01:37:15Z")
The real rule for stress in Latin is: the stress in Latin words falls on the penultimate syllable if that syllable is long, and on the antepenultimate syllable if the penult is short.
Since the next-to-last syllable in “Cicero” is a short e, the stress falls on the i. So the stress in Latin fell just as it does in English: SISS-er-o or KICK-er-o.
-m
---
### Author:  [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)
#### Post date: [December 2, 2001, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/31 "2001-12-02T07:47:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by nonsmokingmirror \*
> **Though I will mention that the only modern European languages where the letter C retains its classical Latin pronunciation are Irish, Welsh and Scots Gaelic.**
Would that be all brythonic Celtic languages, or just Welsh?
---
### Author:  [@nonsmokingmirror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonsmokingmirror)
#### Post date: [December 2, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/32 "2001-12-02T14:43:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Cerowyn \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by nonsmokingmirror \*
> > **Though I will mention that the only modern European languages where the letter C retains its classical Latin pronunciation are Irish, Welsh and Scots Gaelic.**
>
> Would that be all brythonic Celtic languages, or just Welsh? \*\*
Just Welsh – Cornish used ‘k’, as does Breton. The important factor here isn’t relatedness of language so much as continuity of written tradition.
---
### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [December 2, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/33 "2001-12-02T17:17:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by nonsmokingmirror \*
>
> Though I will mention that the only modern European languages where the letter C retains its classical Latin pronunciation are Irish, Welsh and Scots Gaelic. We Celts don’t mess with a good thing.
I almost coughed up my cocoa when I cachinated and cackled loudly upon reading this. You would have thought I watched someone else sit on a cactus. And I think I could cadge up a pretty good additional cadre of such pronunciations.
---
### Author:  [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2001, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/34 "2001-12-03T12:14:13Z")
So the cross-pollination of the Latin and Celtic pronounciation threads prompts me to ask:
What is (or perhaps are) the correct pronounciation(s) of Julius Caesar’s Gaulish opponent towards the end of the Gallic War? Vercingetorix (I am misspelling this, almost certianly)? Is it as per the Latin pronounciations above, or more “just the way it’s written”, or something liek French, or what?
---
### Author:  [@nonsmokingmirror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonsmokingmirror)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097/35 "2001-12-05T21:32:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by David Simmons \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by nonsmokingmirror \*
> >
> > Though I will mention that the only modern European languages where the letter C retains its classical Latin pronunciation are Irish, Welsh and Scots Gaelic. We Celts don’t mess with a good thing.
>
> I almost coughed up my cocoa when I cachinated and cackled loudly upon reading this. You would have thought I watched someone else sit on a cactus. And I think I could cadge up a pretty good additional cadre of such pronunciations. \*\*
In some of my earlier posts, I was explicit about the fact that what is being talked about is the pronunciation of the letter c before a slender vowel (i or e), which varies widely among European languages’ writing systems; I guess I should have reemphasised this point.
If you look back over your list of words where c is pronounced k, you will notice that they all share the property of preceding broad (a o u) vowels. C is pronounced k in this context in the English and many other European spelling systems, though not German (ts) or Turkish (dzh).
Actually, there is one common English word where c does get pronounced k before a slender vowel, and that is ‘celt’ :O)
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-and-newtons-principia/95097.md?page=1)