# Latin pronunciation: Ultra Vires **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838 "2010-07-15T21:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/1 "2010-07-15T21:38:22Z")
Ultra Vires Just heard a professor pronounce it as a homophone with “virus” (i.e. “VYE-rus”), but that doesn’t seem right. My guess would be “VEE-rehs,” but I’ve never taken latin. Help? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/2 "2010-07-15T21:45:40Z")
WEE-race (Latin 'v’s are pronounced like 'w’s) ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/3 "2010-07-15T21:52:47Z")
Weenie, weedy, weenchie? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/4 "2010-07-15T21:53:53Z")
A Southern lawyer would likely pronounce it Vy-rees. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/5 "2010-07-15T21:54:18Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Weenie, weedy, weenchie? More like waynee, weedee, weekee (or at least that was how high school Latin teachers said it). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/6 "2010-07-15T21:54:53Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Weenie, weedy, weenchie? Wenny, weedy, weeky. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/7 "2010-07-15T21:58:41Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > A Southern lawyer would likely pronounce it Vy-rees. Lawyer Latin pronunciations are generally not very accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/8 "2010-07-15T22:00:56Z")
WEE-r’s. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/9 "2010-07-15T22:03:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Lawyer Latin pronunciations are generally not very accurate. As this professor clearly demonstrated.\* Thanks y’all! \*You wouldn’t believe how many different pronunciations of “certiorari” I’ve heard from different lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Penguinlady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Penguinlady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penguinlady)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/10 "2010-07-16T00:14:53Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Ultra Vires > > Just heard a professor pronounce it as a homophone with “virus” (i.e. “VYE-rus”), but that doesn’t seem right. My guess would be “VEE-rehs,” but I’ve never taken latin. Help? I did take Latin and have sung in Latin, both Italian and Germanic, for decades. I’d say OOL-trah VEER-ehs. ---
**Author:** ![Penguinlady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Penguinlady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penguinlady)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/11 "2010-07-16T00:16:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > WEE-race > > (Latin 'v’s are pronounced like 'w’s) Only Germanc Latin, or that taught in the UK. Italian-style pronounces V as V. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/12 "2010-07-16T01:00:55Z")
In Classical Latin, i.e what the ROMANS actually spoke – it’s W’s. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/13 "2010-07-16T01:05:35Z")
> [@Penguinlady](#): > > I did take Latin and have sung in Latin, both Italian and Germanic, for decades. I’d say OOL-trah VEER-ehs. You’d be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/14 "2010-07-16T01:10:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Lawyer Latin pronunciations are generally not very accurate. Southern Lawyer Latin pronunciations are generally less accurate than that. Latin doesn’t seem to work too well with a drawl. Another example: Voir Dire rhymes with tire in my part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/15 "2010-07-16T01:17:39Z")
Apologies for the pedantry, but _voir dire_ is French. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/16 "2010-07-16T01:30:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Apologies for the pedantry, but _voir dire_ is French. French is bad Latin. 😃 (So are the rest of the Romance languages…) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/17 "2010-07-16T03:50:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Lawyer Latin pronunciations are generally not very accurate. Well, yes and no. There is no single, authoritative Latin pronunciation, given the variety of Latin dialects. There’s [Classical Latin, Vulgar Latin, Late Latin, Medieval Latin, and Renaissance Latin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin#History_of_Latin), just to name a few, separated by class, time, and function, with different vocabularies and different pronunciations. As well, Latin words that have been borrowed into modern languages tend to be pronounced according to the pronunciation rules of each of those languages, as mentioned in the wiki article on [Latin Spelling and Pronunciation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Pronunciation): > [@](#): > > Latin words in common use in English are generally fully assimilated into the English sound system, with little to mark them as foreign, for example, cranium, saliva. Other words have a stronger Latin feel to them, usually because of spelling features such as the digraphs ‹ae› and ‹oe› (occasionally written as ligatures: ‹æ› and ‹œ›, respectively), which both denote /iː/ in English. In the Oxford style, ‹ae› represents /eɪ/, in formulae, for example[citation needed]. The digraph ‹ae› or ligature ‹æ› in some words tends to be given an /aɪ/ pronunciation, for example, curriculum vitae. > > However, using loan words in the context of the language borrowing them is a markedly different situation from the study of Latin itself. In this classroom setting, instructors and students attempt to recreate at least some sense of the original pronunciation. What is taught to native anglophones is suggested by the sounds of today’s Romance languages, the direct descendants of Latin. Instructors who take this approach rationalize that Romance vowels probably come closer to the original pronunciation than those of any other modern language (see also the section below on “Derivative languages”). > > However, other languages—including Romance family members—all have their own interpretations of the Latin phonological system, applied both to loan words and formal study of Latin. But English, Romance, or other teachers do not always point out that the particular accent their students learn is not actually the way ancient Romans spoke. The [English pronunciation system for Latin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin) is apparently derived from French pronunciations patterns of Latin, but has since been modified by developments in English pronunciation patterns generally. So if the OP is asking how a Roman in the Classical period, using Classical Latin, would pronounce “vires”, there is an answer to that question. But there can be other, equally valid pronunciations of Latin words, sanctioned by tradition and usage. Personally, I pronounce it much like the OP’s law prof, perhaps more of an “ies” sound in the second syllable, rather than the “us”. That’s a fairly common pronunciation in Canadian legal circles (the terms “intra vires” and “ultra vires” get a lot of work in our constitutional law). One of the chapters of [Uncommon Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncommon_Law) by A.P. Herbert deals with this issue, with a fictional judge going on a tirade against a young barrister who’s using the resurrected Classical pronunciation of Law Latin terms, instead of the traditional Law Latin pronunciations - worth a read. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/18 "2010-07-16T04:00:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So if the OP is asking how a Roman in the Classical period, using Classical Latin, would pronounce “vires”, there is an answer to that question. But there can be other, equally valid pronunciations of Latin words, sanctioned by tradition and usage. Very true. I have read, studied, and taught Latin for decades, and I can say the most worthless and pedantic arguments in the subject concern the tedious details of pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/19 "2010-07-16T04:48:10Z")
Northern Piper is 100% right - modern legal pronunciations don’t always strictly follow the original proununciations of phrases, or the various pronunciations which have descended from them. “Voir dire” is Old French, or more specifically [Law French](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_French), and is “correctly” pronounced any number of ways depending on region: vwuah dear, voy dear, voy dyer, vwah dyer, etc. Many Law French phrases and words used now are pronounced very differently than the original pronunciation, but the modern usage isn’t any more or less valid than the original. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838/20 "2010-07-16T04:54:21Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Northern Piper is 100% right Really, this bears repeating, on a regular basis. 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-pronunciation-ultra-vires/546838.md?page=2)