# Latin question: Papum vs. papam **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 20, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238 "2005-04-20T15:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/21 "2005-04-21T04:28:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I too learned the **Chronos/Peter** version. Perhaps it’s another effect of being Down Under that Latin cases are shuffled, much like your January summers? No doubt. Like having to remember that we use the \*aestas \* volume of the breviary when it’s really _hiems_. Actually it’s probably just another British/American thing. Everyone I’ve ever dealt with in Australia, NZ and the UK who has studied Latin has learnt the cases in the NAGDA order. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/22 "2005-04-21T08:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > It does not take a rocket scientist to see why with a whole classromm repeating/drilling aloud the conjugation of the verb scio through all its forms why Latin teachers might prefer the hard Skio pronunciation to the soft Shio pronuniciation. Work it out. Oh, I’ve heard better. In my 9th grade Latin class, we were spending some time drilling on the number words, since they’re all irregular adjectives. So for each one, we recited out loud the nom., gen., dat., acc., and abl. forms, for masculine, feminine, and neuter. Which means, of course, that when we got up to six, the entire class was reciting together “Sex sex sex, sex sex sex, sex sex sex, sex sex sex, sex sex sex”. Which is pronounced exactly the same way in Latin as in English. Another popular word was “Facere”, the verb for “to make” or “to do”: The imperative form is “fac”. Here, it helps to know that in Latin, “a” is pronounced like English “uh”, and the “c” is hard. Now, picture yourself at a Roman bakery, and telling the baker to produce a half-dozen of something. On the order of the cases, I think that the books I learned from put genitive second because of its use in specifying the form of the word. The nominative form might not bear any particular resemblance to any of the rest, especially for third declension. But if you know the genitive form for a noun, then you can accurately determine both the declension and the root, and thereby all of the other forms of the word (except possibly the nominative). So, for instance, the word for “Pope” would be listed in a Latin dictionary as “papa, papae”. This would tell you that the word is first declension (as opposed to fifth declension, or some freaky third declension), and that the root is “pap-”. So if you want, for example, the accusative, you take the root “pap-” and attach the first declension accusative ending “-am”, to form “papam”. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/23 "2005-04-21T12:18:17Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > Well, I know that Spanish and Italian don’t mess with declensions, and I don’t believe French does either Romanian still has declensions, though, doesn’t it? I was under the impression that, grammatically, it had more similarities to Latin than other major Romance languages. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/24 "2005-04-21T14:18:13Z")
> [@chukhung](#): > > Romanian still has declensions, though, doesn’t it? I was under the impression that, grammatically, it had more similarities to Latin than other major Romance languages. Romanian has something purely odd – the postpositional declined article. Nouns, in and of themselves, are not declined. But their grammatical function in the sentence is defined by the article (i.e., the equivalent of “a, an, the”), which **is** declined, and which is attached to the noun as a suffix, producing something functionally indistinguishable from declined nouns but with a different origin. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/25 "2005-04-21T17:40:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And I can’t remember any examples for the ablative case, but it’s used with some prepositions, and the endings would be “Papa” and “Benedicto” (those are supposed to be macrons over the a and o, but underscore is easier to code). IIRC, the ablative has to do with prepositions, primarily with motion to or from. So, if I said “I am walking to/toward the Pope”, it would be “Ambulo ad Papa” and Papa would be the ablative object of the preposition ad. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/26 "2005-04-21T17:43:50Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > It’s interesting that both \*\*Chronos \*\* and \*\*The Peter Files \*\* listed the cases in the order: > > - nominative; > - genitive; > - dative; > - accusative; and > - ablative. > > I was taught to decline nouns in Latin in a slightly different order, namely: > > - nominative; > - accusative; > - genitive; > - dative; and > - ablative > > I wonder whether this is a regional difference? Or perhaps a generational one? I took Latin in the early 1960s. My instructor was a veddy, veddy proper Englishman who taught us the \*\*Chronos \*\* and \*\*Peter \*\* version. He also referred to his students as vile creatures, except for a select few of us. We were wretched creatures. We formed a club: Mr. Fairweather’s Wretched Creatures. Ah, memories… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/27 "2005-04-21T18:48:34Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > [aside 1]_el papa_ (masculine) in Spanish is the Pope, but _la papa_ (feminine) is the potato. Papas fritas = fried potatoes, papas fritos = fried popes.[/aside] I’m told that, for the Pope’s visit to Cuba, some unhappy entrepreneur once accidentally printed an entire run of T-shirts that said “Yo vi a la Papa.” ---
**Author:** ![Caperkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee59a6/32.png) [@Caperkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caperkid)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/28 "2013-10-21T21:03:35Z")
So, out of curiosity… If there was ever to be a female Pope, what would the Latin expession be for “We have a Pope”? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/29 "2013-10-21T21:20:56Z")
Habemus papam fēminam, I suppose. IANALatinist. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/30 "2013-10-21T22:19:03Z")
Presumably, the same word would be used. You could tell the difference if there were any adjectives attached, though, since adjectives have to agree with their noun in gender, case, and number. So, for example, a good (male) pope would be “bonus papa”, but a good (female) pope would be “bona papa”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/31 "2013-10-22T07:54:44Z")
Hello from the future, thread from 2005. We have a black president now, and a new pope who doesn’t want to get all hung about abortion and gay marriage. Sorry, no flying cars, no jetpacks. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/32 "2013-10-22T18:58:31Z")
> [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](#): > > Spanish: Tenemos un papa. > > Italian: Abbiamo un papa. > > French: Nous avons un pape. > > The Italian and French are from Google’s translation service, so I’m not 100%. A little bit late, but hey… Spanish does not carry an article, it’s _tenemos papa_. The same article-less structure is used any time that the position to be filled is unique within the organization. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238/33 "2013-10-22T22:00:18Z")
MOST of the time, a Latin noun in the first declension ends with "-a’ and is feminine. “Papa” (pope) and “agricola” (farmer) are exceptions- they’re masculine nouns, but still follow the same basic declension rules. When those words are direct objects, they take the accusative case, which ends in “-am.” The feminine noun for "girl is “puella.” So, if I want to say, “I love the girl,” that would be “Amo puellam.” “Habemus papam” is “We have a pope.” And “Interfeci agricolam” is “I killed the the farmer.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-question-papum-vs-papam/300238.md?page=1)