# Latin translation help, anyone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003 "2010-11-09T04:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/1 "2010-11-09T04:27:43Z")
I’m trying to find out the translation for this: Vita Caput Obses Anyone? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/2 "2010-11-09T04:36:48Z")
“Life head hostage.” I’m guessing that was supposed to be _Vita Capiet Obses_, “Life takes a hostage?” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/3 "2010-11-09T04:41:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Life head hostage.” > > I’m guessing that was supposed to be _Vita Capiet Obses_, “Life takes a hostage?” I looked up each word, but I can’t make sense out of it. It’s a tagline for a financial company: [Here.](http://lifecapsecurity.com/) See bottom right of picture. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/4 "2010-11-09T04:50:05Z")
I see. Another meaning of _obses_ is “security,” and another meaning of _caput_ is “capital.” Literally it means “Life Head Hostage,” but they’re using it as a translation of “Life Capital Security.” ---
**Author:** ![firstname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@firstname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firstname)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/5 "2010-11-09T04:55:03Z")
I think it’s supposed to be the name of the company in Latin. Life Capital Security Vita Caput [Obses](http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=1010889&p2=o) Life seems fine, Caput for capital doesn’t fit very well but its not the longest stretch, and another meaning of obses is surety of security. EDIT: Beaten to it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/6 "2010-11-09T05:01:57Z")
OH, so they’re just translating the name? How ridiculous. I assumed they were trying to impart a bit of timeless wisdom. Very disappointing. Can you venture another meaning? A secure life is most important? A life of security? ? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/7 "2010-11-09T05:16:12Z")
Cassell’s Latin dictionary is online. _Obses_ also means a surety or security, which would make sense for a financial company. Note that this is nominative case. _Caput_ can be used figuratively, meaning the main or principal thing. I’m guessing _vita_ is ablative, with _in_ implied/understood, and guessing further that _est_ (“is”) is understood. This leads me to suggest it means “[financial] security is the most important thing in life.” On preview I see it could well be an unimaginative rendering of the company’s name. Pity. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/8 "2010-11-09T14:31:20Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Cassell’s Latin dictionary is online. _Obses_ also means a surety or security, which would make sense for a financial company. Note that this is nominative case. > > _Caput_ can be used figuratively, meaning the main or principal thing. > > I’m guessing _vita_ is ablative, with _in_ implied/understood, and guessing further that _est_ (“is”) is understood. > > This leads me to suggest it means “[financial] security is the most important thing in life.” > > On preview I see it could well be an unimaginative rendering of the company’s name. Pity. I like that thinking. Good job. I may try to call them later if I get a chance and just ask them. I’ll report back if I do. Thanks, all. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/9 "2010-11-09T15:35:32Z")
I don’t see Wikitionary as listing “capital (money)” as a meaning for “caput” except in the sense of “capital city”, nor do I see anything in Cassell’s that would suggest it. It can be used to mean “source” or “the main thing” as in “capital city” though, but I would not be surprised if the someone merely looked up “capital” in a Latin dictionary and didn’t bother determining whether the meaning worked for what they wanted. This is supported by all the words being in the nominative (although vita could be ablative and caput could be accusative); whoever came up with it likely just looked up the three words and wrote down the translation without any further thinking. I’m not exactly sure what cases one would use if trying to translate that name accurately, but I’m leaning very strongly towards it being a quick and dirty translation job. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/10 "2010-11-09T15:43:41Z")
Missed edit window: The derivation of capital as a source of business funds apparently comes from the use of caput to mean “a head of cattle” and from there extrapolated to wealth of any kind. Seems like an incredible stretch that it would be the best word to use to describe the modern idea of financial capital though. The sense of caput usually involves importance or being an ultimate source of something, which again is quite a stretch for how it’s being used here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/11 "2010-11-09T15:45:16Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > I don’t see Wikitionary as listing “capital (money)” as a meaning for “caput” except in the sense of “capital city”, nor do I see anything in Cassell’s that would suggest it. It can be used to mean “source” or “the main thing” as in “capital city” though, but I would not be surprised if the someone merely looked up “capital” in a Latin dictionary and didn’t bother determining whether the meaning worked for what they wanted. This is supported by all the words being in the nominative (although vita could be ablative and caput could be accusative); whoever came up with it likely just looked up the three words and wrote down the translation without any further thinking. I’m not exactly sure what cases one would use if trying to translate that name accurately, but I’m leaning very strongly towards it being a quick and dirty translation job. I think you’re exactly right. _Caput_ can mean “capital” in a figurative sense a a capital city or center of government, but it does not (I’m pretty sure) carry the English meaning of “capital” as money. Somebody probably used an online translator or something. Even their use of _Obses_ isn’t really accurate. That word is not used in the sense they’re using it – in the sense of being protected or safe – but means “_a_ security,” as in a marker or collateral, a figurative “hostage.” I’d bet anything they just ran the name of thir company through an online translator and didn’t bother to consult anyone who actually knew Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/12 "2010-11-09T15:55:39Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > Missed edit window: > > The derivation of capital as a source of business funds apparently comes from the use of caput to mean “a head of cattle” and from there extrapolated to wealth of any kind. Seems like an incredible stretch that it would be the best word to use to describe the modern idea of financial capital though. The sense of caput usually involves importance or being an ultimate source of something, which again is quite a stretch for how it’s being used here. Along those lines, _pecunia_ = money is derived from _pecus_ = head of cattle. That’s Classical Latin, though, where I don’t think they had the concept of financial capital in our sense. s.v. “capital” the Online Etymology Dictionary says “The financial sense (1610s) is from L.L. _capitale_ ‘stock, property,’ neut. of _capitalis_.” So if the concept didn’t exist as such in Classical Latin except as meat-on-the-hoof, and Late Latin used _capitale_, then _caput_ is just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/13 "2010-11-09T16:42:33Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > I don’t see Wikitionary as listing “capital (money)” as a meaning for “caput” except in the sense of “capital city”, nor do I see anything in Cassell’s that would suggest it.. In Cassell’s, under II/2/c (next to last listing), it says [“of money, _capital_.”](http://books.google.com/books?id=D1dJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=Caput&source=bl&ots=PGKasW9KpN&sig=HPZ5zO1W-0QeKm1_wx__Zfxsyz4&hl=en&ei=nHXZTIC2KsO78gbg97DxCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Caput&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/14 "2010-11-09T16:54:01Z")
It lists it being used that way by Cicero once (after “leading principle”), but I think that must have been a highly figurative use. It’s certainly not the first thing that a Latin speaker would think of when seeing that word. There are a lot of figurative meanings for the word “head” in English too, but you wouldn’t immediately think of something like a head of cattle or a head of lettuce when seeing that word. I think _pecunia_ would have been a much better choice, since it’s primary meaning is “owned property,” or “wealth.” ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/15 "2010-11-09T17:16:29Z")
Love the latin discussions. So if you guys had been consulted instead of google translate 200 A.D, what would you guys have provided this company with? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/16 "2010-11-09T17:18:17Z")
_Vita Pecunia Salus_ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/17 "2010-11-09T18:41:00Z")
[Furman’s Lexicon](http://facweb.furman.edu/~dmorgan/lexicon/silva.htm) has this for Capital: > [@](#): > > .busn capital (financial) / sors caput, opes capitales (f. pl.) (LRL) [Vicipaedia](http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitale) has (with my translations in brackets, feel free to straighten me out): > [@](#): > > Capitale > > 1. Capital, sive capitale (-is, n.), apud maiores scelus morte dignum erat. > [“Capital” or “capitale”, among ancestors, it was a crime worthy of death] > > 2. Capitale (-is, n.)[1] vel sors est summa pecuniae quae expenditur eo consilio ut usuris sive fenoribus sive lucro aucta aliquo temporis spatio post reddatur. > [“Capitale” or “portion” est the total of money which is doled out for the purpose of of usury or interest or to increase profit in some amount of time to be returned.] > > Iam maiores plura vocabula noscebant quibus res capitali similes nominabant exempli gratia: > [Already now ancestors had come to know multiple words by which things similar were named, for the sake of example:] > > ``` > * Summa capitalis > > ``` > > [A sum of money] > \* caput. > [A head] > \* Sors pecuniaria, “mergunt sortem usurae” apud Livium > [A share of money, “they bury in portions for interest” in the writings of Livy] > > Haec vocabula quidem saepenumero etiam multas alias res significabant quamobrem hodiernis temporibus novo vocabulo opus est. > [These words indeed often signify even many other things, for this reason, in modern times there is need for a new word.] But hell, it’s not less of a problem in English. And as surprisingly many subtle synonyms as there are in Latin, a lot of words get diverse usage. “Capitale” has precedent in Latin, and context will generally distinguish it. Anyway, it seems that the title in English doesn’t really mean “Life, Capital, Security” but “Security of Life and Capital”. So, I’d think you’d want: Vītae Capitālisque Sēcūritās ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/18 "2010-11-09T18:48:02Z")
Those usages have contextual modifiers to make the meaning more clear, though. Seeing the word _caput_ by itself does not bring financial capital to mind. Why do you think the phrase in question means “security of life and money” when the words are all nominative and “Life Capital security” is the name of the company? Isn’t an amateurish translation of the company name a more parsimonious explanation than any attempt to make a coherent phrase out of it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/19 "2010-11-09T19:05:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why do you think the phrase in question means “security of life and money” when the words are all nominative and “Life Capital security” is the name of the company? Isn’t an amateurish translation of the company name a more parsimonious explanation than any attempt to make a coherent phrase out of it? I was basing what they mean on the English, which doesn’t have inflections to indicate grammatical roles, but those roles are important in translation and so need to be unpacked. My guess is that “Life Capital Security” means “Security of life and capital” – though I suppose it could be “Security of ‘life capital’”, whatever that might mean. Your resolution of this lexical ambiguity may differ, but to be clear I’m not basing what the English should be on what the Latin is. I’m basing what the Latin should be on one interpretation of what the English signifies. Indeed, it does appear to be a simple word-for-word look-up of the English, presumably as you say by an online translator and not by a person with a book. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003/20 "2010-11-10T15:16:45Z")
I saw an article on [Ephemeris](http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/nuntius.php?id=652), a Latin-language news site, about another disaster in Haiti. It reminded me of an old joke and shed light on the problem with the fact that Latin doesn’t have a single word to cover the significance of the English word ‘capital’. It means the following joke doesn’t work: Q: Quid est Haitiae caput? R: Prope $1.98. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-translation-help-anyone/560003.md?page=2)