# Laughed at in Guadalajara b/c of Rosetta Stone Latin American Spanish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444 "2009-01-15T16:20:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/61 "2009-01-17T16:19:05Z")
> [@Windwalker](#): > > OK, might as well ask here, since I’ve been hearing and reading about conflicting reports. How exactly should you pronounce a “b” and “v” in Spanish? For those that think they should be pronounced either the same or differently, please enlighten me. > > In Rosetta Stone (Lat. Am.) at least, “b” and “v” sound like they’re the same, and they both vary from a slightly softer version of the English “b” to an extremely light English “v” (that almost sounds like a cross between a “v” and “w”). Does that sound about right? If so, for what regions does this apply? I’m guessing you cannot read Spanish enough to read RAE’s explanation. B and v are both supposed to sound like an English b, which seems Rosetta Stone has about right, in places which do not distinguish them. In places in which it is different, v is pronounced like the English v, meaning harder in sound than b. It seems in parts of South America and Spain, the letters are differentiated, but in Guadalajara (Mexico), Central American, the Caribbean, and even parts of Spain both letters are pronounced exactly the same. The only difference is in writing. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/62 "2009-01-17T17:07:31Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I’m guessing you cannot read Spanish enough to read RAE’s explanation. B and v are both supposed to sound like an English b, which seems Rosetta Stone has about right, in places which do not distinguish them. > > In places in which it is different, v is pronounced like the English v, meaning harder in sound than b. > > It seems in parts of South America and Spain, the letters are differentiated, but in Guadalajara (Mexico), Central American, the Caribbean, and even parts of Spain both letters are pronounced exactly the same. The only difference is in writing. Heh, I never knew about the Spanish equivalent of L’Alliance française until this thread. The “b” in Spanish never sounds as hard as in English to me, though this may just be some sort of confirmation bias. It always sounds a bit softer (i.e. not as voiced?). Am I just imagining things? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/63 "2009-01-17T17:17:19Z")
> [@Windwalker](#): > > Heh, I never knew about the Spanish equivalent of L’Alliance française until this thread. The “b” in Spanish never sounds as hard as in English to me, though this may just be some sort of confirmation bias. It always sounds a bit softer (i.e. not as voiced?). Am I just imagining things? That may be my own “English is not my first language” thing in there, but just general, b and v are pronounced the same, and if they are differentiated, b is softer than v, following examples from other languages. I probably pronounce it then softer than what a native English speaker would think. Huh… that may explain things… Real Academia Española has been around for… eh… forever? 😉 And it is composed today by several academies, usually one per Spanish-speaking country. Puerto Rico has its own academy despite not being a recognized independent country, and I think there is one for the United States. These are of fairly recent creation, so I’m thinking that in the beginning it was based mainly in Spain. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/64 "2009-01-17T17:58:23Z")
B/V - My understanding is that both letters stand for a single phoneme in Spanish that is expressed by two different allophones, a plosive and a fricative. For those who are familiar with a variety of Spanish in which both allophones appear, it should be impossible to derive the _spelling_ simply from hearing the pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/65 "2009-01-17T18:00:44Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > He ordered chicken and rice (ris). That makes much more sense. I always hear it as _frites_. He definitely says _y_, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/66 "2009-01-17T18:07:14Z")
From the RAE entry for v: > [@](#): > > No existe en español diferencia alguna en la pronunciación de las letras b y v. Las dos representan hoy el sonido bilabial sonoro /b/. … > > La pronunciación de la v como labiodental no ha existido nunca en español,… > > También se da espontáneamente en algunos puntos de América por influjo de las lenguas amerindias. En el resto de los casos, es un error que cometen algunas personas por un equivocado prurito de corrección, basado en recomendaciones del pasado, pues aunque la Academia reconoció ya desde el Diccionario de Autoridades (1726-1739) que «los españoles no hacemos distinción en la pronunciación de estas dos letras», varias ediciones de la Ortografía y de la Gramática académicas de los siglos xviii, xix y principios del xx describieron, e incluso recomendaron, la pronunciación de la v como labiodental. … > > En resumen, la pronunciación correcta de la letra v en español es idéntica a la de la b, por lo que no existe oralmente ninguna diferencia en nuestro idioma entre palabras como baca y vaca, bello y vello, acerbo y acervo. Pardon my editing, but I just don’t plan on spending my afternoon translating this. > [@](#): > > There is no difference in Spanish between the pronunciation of the letter b and v. Nowadays, both represent the sound /b/… > > The pronunciation of v as “labiodental” has never existed in Spanish … > > It appears spontaneously in parts of America as influence from the Amerindian tongues. In other cases, it is an error committed by some people in a misguided itch to correct, based in recommendations from the past. Although the RAE recognized since the “Dictionary of Authorities” (1726-1739) that “we Spaniards make no distinction between the pronunciation of this two letters”, various editions of the “Orthography and Grammar” from the Academy in the centuries XVIII to early XX describe and even recommend the pronunciation of v as labiodental. > > In summary, the correct pronunciation of the letter v in Spanish es identical to that of b, and there is no difference in our oral expression of “baca” and “vaca”, “bello” and "vello, or “acervo” and “acerbo”. So, for one, I stand corrected. OTOH, heresy! I might be late XX century, but I was always thought to differentiate them. Heck, even s and z. Failing to do so was one of the marks of a poor education. I still do (and probably will continue to do so until the PR influence erodes my primitive schooling) and can easily recognize them when other people speak (one of many hints in determining the origin of the people I speak with). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/67 "2009-01-17T18:07:15Z")
If you are still going to Guadalajara remember to compliment the local soccer team:" Las Chivas valen madre." ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/68 "2009-01-17T18:15:06Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > He ordered chicken and rice (ris). Rice is _riz_ in French, not _ris_. Looking online, people have transcribed the final two words of that commercial as “les frites,” “le riz,” and “les fruits.” I can’t find any audio of it, though. I actually thought it was “les frites” the one or two times I’ve heard the commercial, but now I think it may be “le riz.” ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/69 "2009-01-17T18:39:30Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > So, for one, I stand corrected. OTOH, heresy! I might be late XX century, but I was always thought to differentiate them. Heck, even s and z. Failing to do so was one of the marks of a poor education. I still do (and probably will continue to do so until the PR influence erodes my primitive schooling) and can easily recognize them when other people speak (one of many hints in determining the origin of the people I speak with). _Shrug_ Good luck claiming heresy on an original cite from three centuries ago, published close the foundation of the academy. 😉 Guess you don’t do seseo, then? And you forgot the part that the movement in the early XX century started due to an effort to imitate other languages (ie, as something foreign, where it had no place in Spanish nor had had it in centuries). I was taught how to differentiate all of them, and my guess is most people are taught. Otherwise, how do you know how to spell the word correctly without context when you’re in grammar school and just starting (dictations)? Plus I was told other dialects may differentiate, but that mine didn’t, _nor was it the mark of an uneducated person not to differentiate_. And seriously, for me, if someone else from Puerto Rico talked to me like that, I would put it as a sign of _ultracorrección_, and think (at first) that the person is a pompous ass who thinks he/she knows better (and thus truly uneducated). 🙂 And yea, the dialectal differences are useful to recognize the origin of others. 🙂 And I want to stress someone from Puerto Rico… If you (Sapo), or a Spaniard, or someone from another country spoke to me like that, I would think different, I would think at first that it may be their own dialectal quirk. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/70 "2009-01-17T18:53:35Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > And I want to stress someone from Puerto Rico… If you (Sapo), or a Spaniard, or someone from another country spoke to me like that, I would think different, I would think at first that it may be their own dialectal quirk. I am lucky about this. I am a foreigner even on my motherland, so I can get away with a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/71 "2009-01-21T15:24:07Z")
I’ve always been taught that _b_ and _v_ are pronounced identically whilst learning Mexican Spanish. I’ll accept the academy’s judgment, too. I’ve also seen the _b_ and _v_ as perhaps the most typical spelling error while in Mexico, too. Even my native-speaking wife insists that they’re pronounced differently. _In practice_, though, I hear a distinction from a large number of Mexicans (and other nationalities on Spanish-language television). It’s very subtle. The _v_ has a very slight hint of an edge to it, as in English. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/72 "2009-01-21T15:44:46Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Real Academia Española has been around for… eh… forever? 😉 And it is composed today by several academies, usually one per Spanish-speaking country. Puerto Rico has its own academy despite not being a recognized independent country, and I think there is one for the United States. These are of fairly recent creation, so I’m thinking that in the beginning it was based mainly in Spain. In the beginning, there was only Spain. I mean, it’s been around long enough that what are now separate countries were parts of Spain back then. The full list of Academias is [here](http://asale.org/ASALE/asale.html). I’m trying to come up with a difference between b and v in Catalan and can’t, but then, I’m an “unschooled speaker,” I never had Catalan classes. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/73 "2009-01-21T16:10:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I’m trying to come up with a difference between b and v in Catalan and can’t, but then, I’m an “unschooled speaker,” I never had Catalan classes. I have no idea, I put Galicia and Catala because the only thing that RAE mentioned is that the distinction is made in Spain, if any, in places where other language is usually spoken (which would include Galicia, Cataluña, and Basque country, no?). I’m happy not differentiating at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/74 "2009-01-21T17:02:04Z")
The RAE says that the differentiation of v and b happens in “valencianos o mallorquines y en los de algunas zonas del sur de Cataluña, cuando hablan castellano”, so it seems that the difference doesn’t occur in Catala, but when catalanes speak Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/75 "2009-01-21T17:18:15Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’ve always been taught that _b_ and _v_ are pronounced identically whilst learning Mexican Spanish. I’ll accept the academy’s judgment, too. I’ve also seen the _b_ and _v_ as perhaps the most typical spelling error while in Mexico, too. Even my native-speaking wife insists that they’re pronounced differently. > > _In practice_, though, I hear a distinction from a large number of Mexicans (and other nationalities on Spanish-language television). It’s very subtle. The _v_ has a very slight hint of an edge to it, as in English. They sure sound the same to me, and I have heard the same thing in school. On the flip side, when my wife studied English in high school, they told her that “man” and “men” are pronounced identically, which any native English speaker would immediately say is not true. To a Brazilian, the sound is very subtle, especially in the middle of a sentence. I imagine that **b** vs. **v** is similar: native speakers know the difference while Spanish teachers and textbooks tell us to say them the same. Is this a correct assessment? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/76 "2009-01-21T18:12:00Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > I imagine that **b** vs. **v** is similar: native speakers know the difference while Spanish teachers and textbooks tell us to say them the same. > > Is this a correct assessment? _Shrugs_ As I’ve said (as a native speaker), in my region, people generally do not differentiate it. The occassions I’ve seen it differentiate is during class, by teachers giving us dictation while we’re still learning the words (and without a context); and then by people who think they should be pronounced different (NOT teachers, educators, or schooled people). Again, though, IME, during my primary and secondary schooling, with Spanish as the main language, the teachers actually made a point to say that those differentiating b and v, at least in Puerto Rico, where doing a mistake of _ultracorrección_. This is something I have heard of many teachers in my region say, and IS backed up by the RAE, which is the main authority when it comes to this. Now, as to how people speak on the streets… Well, yea, nobody speaks it correctly all the time, not even correct for their dialect (and I think of my compatriots when I write this). If they differentiate the consonants, it does not mean they are speaking it correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/77 "2009-01-21T18:49:43Z")
Oops: big mistake. I meant to indicate that my wife insists that they’re pronounced _the same_, i.e., all evidence points to their supposed equality, but that in practice, I hear a distinction, even from my own wife. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/78 "2009-01-21T19:09:39Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > I imagine that **b** vs. **v** is similar: native speakers know the difference while Spanish teachers and textbooks tell us to say them the same. > > Is this a correct assessment? Long story short, it is a regional thing. Some regions do, some don’t. The RAE itself said not to in the 1700’s, then pushed for differentiation for 200 years, then said there is no difference. The official stance, as of today is that there is no difference. How long will it be official? who knows. People in the streets still do it or not based on how it goes in their region and not in what the RAE says. At least nor right away. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/79 "2009-01-22T05:24:20Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > “I will not buy this document, it scratched me?” 😕 > > I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say here. The only thing I can come up with is perhaps you meant “I will not buy this file”, because _expediente_ can mean file, except only in the sense of a document. _Lima_ is the tool for filing. They will have been trying to say “I will not buy this record, it is scratched”. Truly, the lack of knowledge of classical Pythonology in the youth of today is lamentable. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444/80 "2009-01-22T08:03:15Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > They will have been trying to say “I will not buy this record, it is scratched”. Truly, the lack of knowledge of classical Pythonology in the youth of today is lamentable. For serious. Can’t access youtube at work, but searching “monty python hungarian phrasebook” ought to bring up the sketch. It involves a phrasebook purporting itself to be Hungarian/English, but translates all the Hungarian phrases as bizarre and or sexual. The conversation which occurs in a tobacco shop includes such gems as “you have beautiful thighs,” and “my nipples explode with delight.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughed-at-in-guadalajara-b-c-of-rosetta-stone-latin-american-spanish/481444.md?page=3)