# Laughing While Black? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894 "2015-08-25T22:33:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rhinocerosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rhinocerosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhinocerosis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/1 "2015-08-25T22:33:45Z")
A recent news [report](http://abcnews.go.com/US/napa-valley-wine-train-apologizes-booting-black-womens/story?id=33306287) tells us that a large group of African-American women boarded the Napa Valley Wine Train and, after making excessive and disruptive noise, were asked and/or ordered to leave the train. Initial social media reports indicated that there were some instances of verbal and physical abuse. That posting on Facebook was subsequently deleted. Now the train folks are falling all over themselves to apologize, etc. Are we getting to the point where any adverse action taken against any individual or group of African-Americans is, de facto, treated as being motivated by race, rather than some other non-race-based reason? Can that be good for general race relations in this country? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/2 "2015-08-25T22:38:01Z")
This has been a hot topic here, locally. I’ve been on this sort of trip before, and you have to realize that it’s essentially a bar on rails People are drinking. And People get loud when they’re drinking. If a group wouldn’t be kicked out of a bar, they shouldn’t be kicked off the Wine Train. It doesn’t seem like these women were doing anything that would get them kicked out of a bar. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/3 "2015-08-25T22:39:05Z")
drunk blacks - is that even legal? Why was anyone apologising if they did nothing wrong? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/4 "2015-08-25T22:54:20Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > drunk blacks - is that even legal? > > Why was anyone apologising if they did nothing wrong? Not saying this wasn’t racially motivated, but that’s a really stupid question these days. Why would they be apologizing? Because they are probably getting a ton of Twitter and Facebook flames and it’s bad publicity. Even if they did nothing wrong and were totally justified they are going to apologize today. It’s pretty much the SOP whenever you get bad press. As an anecdotal for instance, my wife and I were at one of the local restaurants in our area a few weeks ago. A (white) couple and their friends were at the restaurant and were drinking. The woman made a huge scene at the restaurant over their bill. They reamed out the waitress, shouted at the manager, threw a plate and a glass on the ground then stormed out without paying. They then flamed the restaurant on Facebook…and got a profound apology and were told if they would come back their next bill would be half price. Now, I don’t know what exactly the issue was (though I have a good idea since they were quite loud), but regardless of what it was they were the ones acting like total asses. Yet, there it was…an apology AND an offer for them to come back next time for half price. It’s the way things work today. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/5 "2015-08-25T23:00:15Z")
Right, you didn’t know what the issue was. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/6 "2015-08-25T23:05:57Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Right, you didn’t know what the issue was. I know that throwing a glass and a plate (both of which shattered) and shouting drunkenly at the waitress and the manager were not behaviors that should be encouraged. Also, walking out without paying seemed to be contraindicated. I don’t care WHAT the issue was, those behaviors were over the top. This is not an exhaustive list of such things occurring today. If you have never heard of anyone doing something like this or companies reacting this way then you really need to get out more. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/7 "2015-08-25T23:21:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This has been a hot topic here, locally. I’ve been on this sort of trip before, and you have to realize that it’s essentially a bar on rails People are drinking. And People get loud when they’re drinking. If a group wouldn’t be kicked out of a bar, they shouldn’t be kicked off the Wine Train. It doesn’t seem like these women were doing anything that would get them kicked out of a bar. The Wine Train is not really a bar on rails. They do serve alcohol, but I would describe it more of an upscale restaurant. Families with small children go on the wine train. Families with small children don’t go to a bar. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/8 "2015-08-25T23:22:50Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The Wine Train is not really a bar on rails. They do serve alcohol, but I would describe it more of an upscale restaurant. Families with small children go on the wine train. Families with small children don’t go to a bar. They do where I live. There is a bar/restaurant down the street from me and children are allowed in the bar until 6PM. Trust me, this place gets pretty rowdy. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/9 "2015-08-25T23:31:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This has been a hot topic here, locally. I’ve been on this sort of trip before, and you have to realize that it’s essentially a bar on rails People are drinking. And People get loud when they’re drinking. If a group wouldn’t be kicked out of a bar, they shouldn’t be kicked off the Wine Train. It doesn’t seem like these women were doing anything that would get them kicked out of a bar. I’ve been in plenty of bars where people are thrown out for being loud. While on a train the riders don’t have the luxury of leaving if they don’t like the behavior the other passengers. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/10 "2015-08-25T23:41:44Z")
Apparently they were asked a few times to quiet down or leave. But, in their defense, there has been a few times in my life when I couldn’t stop laughing. I wish I could buy some more of that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/11 "2015-08-25T23:56:05Z")
It’s notable that the police who were called because of the disturbance seemed just as surprised as the ladies that were kicked off the train. > [@](#): > > Police spokeswoman Maria Gonzalez said, “there was no crime being committed … nobody was intoxicated, there were no issues,” so the officers left. A bus came to take the women back to the train station. > > In the past, she told the AP, police had responded to wine-train reports of passengers ousted for domestic incidents on board or for fighting. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/25/allegations-of-racism-after-a-black-womens-book-club-is-ordered-off-calif-wine-train/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/25/allegations-of-racism-after-a-black-womens-book-club-is-ordered-off-calif-wine-train/) That tells me that **Bone** is not exactly correct, and at best it is like a bar/restaurant, not just a restaurant with wine. Most restaurants aren’t noted by police as being a place where they’ve been called to previously for fights and domestic disputes. It also clearly implies to me that the police spokesperson at the least was wondering “Why the fuck were we called to this train because some ladies, including a 83-year-old, were talking too loud?” The police also state that the women were not intoxicated. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/12 "2015-08-26T00:02:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I know that throwing a glass and a plate (both of which shattered) and shouting drunkenly at the waitress and the manager were not behaviors that should be encouraged. Also, walking out without paying seemed to be contraindicated. I don’t care WHAT the issue was, those behaviors were over the top. > > This is not an exhaustive list of such things occurring today… Fair points. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/13 "2015-08-26T00:02:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They do where I live. There is a bar/restaurant down the street from me and children are allowed in the bar until 6PM. Trust me, this place gets pretty rowdy. Well, whaddya expect? Kids can’t hold their liquor. ---
**Author:** ![Rhinocerosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rhinocerosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhinocerosis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/14 "2015-08-26T00:08:32Z")
Query – if not all members of the Sistahs book club were African-American, can their expulsion be characterized as race-based? Further, this quote is notable: > [@](#): > > [A] letter the Wine Train sent to club members apologized for not booking the women in an area suitable to “a particularly vibrant group” This is taken from the [broader apology](http://napavalleyregister.com/news/local/wine-train-ceo-apologizes-to-women-booted-from-train/article_8b8a4f56-c4d9-5e49-a27d-1e2e6a6151aa.html) offered by the Wine Train’s CEO and may explain a bit more about why the maitre d’hotel asked them to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/15 "2015-08-26T00:17:03Z")
> [@theR](#): > > That tells me that **Bone** is not exactly correct, and at best it is like a bar/restaurant, not just a restaurant with wine. Most restaurants aren’t noted by police as being a place where they’ve been called to previously for fights and domestic disputes. I’ve been on the train. Have you? I describe it as an upscale restaurant that serves wine. Here’s the website and the package I did: > **[Gourmet Express Dinner | Napa Valley Wine Train](https://www.winetrain.com/our-experiences/gourment-express-dinner/)** > > Savor a gourmet experience aboard the Wine Train's Gourmet Express Dinner. Enjoy exquisite cuisine, fine wines, and stunning views for an unforgettable evening. > [@](#): > > OVERVIEW > Travel back to an elegant age. These expertly refurbished 1915-1917 Pullman Cars create an atmosphere ideal for relaxation. Experience two different types of railcar - a 1915 or 1917 Pullman dining car and a 1915 Pullman lounge car. > > $124-$139 Per Person > > INCLUDES > Multiple Course Gourmet Meal > > Welcome Taste of Wine > > 3 Hour Journey Aboard Our Vintage Train Near $140. It’s not a rowdy bar. Fights will occur pretty much anywhere, doesn’t make the $140 train ride a bar. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/16 "2015-08-26T01:56:54Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’ve been on the train. Have you? I describe it as an upscale restaurant that serves wine. Here’s the website and the package I did: > > [Gourmet Express Dinner | Napa Valley Wine Train](http://winetrain.com/package/gourmet-express/) > Near $140. It’s not a rowdy bar. Fights will occur pretty much anywhere, doesn’t make the $140 train ride a bar. No, I haven’t. I’m judging by the police saying they’ve been called there for fights before. I don’t know of any upscale restaurant in my area where the police would say they’ve been called there before for fights. Upscale clubs, upscale bars, sure. But not restaurants. Maybe I’m just being naive. And is $140 for three hours of food, wine, and train riding actually upscale in California? So what do you actually think from all the stories? Did they deserve to be kicked out and paraded through all the cars in the process? Should the police have been called? Did they do anything abnormal or were they simply having a good time and talking loudly? I’ve seen others who claim to have been on the train and say the described behavior of these ladies is typical and expected. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/17 "2015-08-26T02:30:11Z")
Here’s another incident from April: [**The Wine Train Thing Happened to Another Group of Passengers, This Time Latino**](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/08/25/napa_valley_wine_train_discrimination_another_passenger_thinks_she_was_discriminated.html) Norma Ruiz, a graduate student in the University of California–San Francisco’s nursing program, was celebrating her 28th birthday in April when a patron approached her party of 10 people to say that they were being annoying and loud. “We were kind of taken by surprise because we were just celebrating my birthday having normal conversation,” Ruiz told me. “We were not making noise, we felt very uncomfortable the way we were being approached and [they were] embarrassing our group in front of everyone,” Ruiz says. Ruiz described the group as being made up of “all Latino individuals,” the majority of whom were local University of California–Berkeley graduates. She now sees the incident as one of racial bias. “I think it was just that person complaining and then the manager seeing that we were Latino, basically decided to discriminate [against] us because we were Latinos and [a big] group,” she said. “Now that I hear about this event with a group of African American ladies being kicked out of the train, I’m seeing a pattern. I’m realizing that how I was treated was not normal.” Another group of 10. From the photo at the link, it looks like passengers are sitting right on top of each other. Maybe the acoustics are bad as well. How could a large group comfortably interact without being loud and calling out to each other? It’s difficult to have an opinion without being there, but it sounds like a combination of a tight space, large group dynamics, and passengers with different expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/18 "2015-08-26T05:50:48Z")
> [@theR](#): > > And is $140 for three hours of food, wine, and train riding actually upscale in California? > > So what do you actually think from all the stories? Did they deserve to be kicked out and paraded through all the cars in the process? Should the police have been called? Did they do anything abnormal or were they simply having a good time and talking loudly? I’ve seen others who claim to have been on the train and say the described behavior of these ladies is typical and expected. I don’t know. My experience is that there is usually more to the story than first reported. I would be disappointed if I scheduled time to go on the Wine Train and a group next to me was being loud enough to interrupt my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/19 "2015-08-26T06:45:41Z")
From the photograph in **camille** ’s link it looks like it’s a pretty nice upscale dining car ambiance. I can imagine sitting there, looking forward to a nice trip, and instead finding myself in the same enclosed space with a group of 12 women (race, ethnicity and state of sobriety are probably not very relevant here - ‘group of 12 women’ says all that needs to be said) whose idea of having a good time _will_ involve everyone else in that car having a miserable time. **Loud people are evil people and cannot be treated cruelly enough.** I am disappointed at the apparent absence of police brutality. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/20 "2015-08-26T10:39:50Z")
I’m having a hard time having an opinion on this, because I don’t know how loud the group was being, and I don’t know how this compares to other groups that ride without problems. Frankly, it seems to me that the train isn’t really equipped to host groups. In restaurants, groups are generally seated in private rooms. I think the train should consider figuring out an equivalent or at least warn groups beforehand. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894.md?page=2)