# Laughing While Black? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894 "2015-08-25T22:33:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/41 "2015-08-26T16:06:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > See the second sentence in the 2nd post in this thread. Yes. Ahh ok. When you said ‘this sort of trip’ I thought you meant something similar, not this particular train. A lot of us Bay Area folks have gone on it so I wasn’t sure if you had. That being said, I don’t like hanging out at bars or lounges - too loud 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/42 "2015-08-26T16:20:20Z")
On the radio yesterday they quoted a spokesperson saying they average kicking people off the train once a month. Unless those turn out to be mostly minorities I am disinclined to assume racism rather than some general uptightness. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/43 "2015-08-26T17:55:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They do where I live. There is a bar/restaurant down the street from me and children are allowed in the bar until 6PM. Trust me, this place gets pretty rowdy. Is this the place? ;) ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/44 "2015-08-26T18:04:50Z")
I’ve been on the wine train a few times. I’ve always had a good time and the food is excellent. Some of the cars are more elegant than others and there’s plenty of the noise that comes from people having a good time. It’s no library but it’s very easy to enjoy your own group without the next group over interrupting you. The end cars are more typical bars - and in those cars the people tend to be a bit more rowdy (and fun!) but I’ve only witnessed a festive atmosphere. In any case, you’d have to be pretty loud to get noticed. I doubt they were singled out for their race, but there does come a limit to how loud a group can be before they disrupt the fun of others. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/45 "2015-08-26T18:19:10Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > I’ve been on the wine train a few times. I’ve ridden the white horse on occasion, myself. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/46 "2015-08-26T18:20:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > On the radio yesterday they quoted a spokesperson saying they average kicking people off the train once a month. Unless those turn out to be mostly minorities I am disinclined to assume racism rather than some general uptightness. Sounds to me like they are unable to accommodate groups. It’s not like it’s a surprise to them they groups can get loud and people don’t like sitting next to large grips. They need to either fix that, of warn groups ahead of time that they will be expected to be quieter than they’d be in a comparable restaurant. Maybe the could consider a car they market as having a “lively atmosphere” or have a quiet car for the more sedate. You can’t market to both the bachelorette parties and the little old ladies without some kind of plan for making sure both types of patrons have a good experience. If their dining rooms can’t handle groups, they need to stop accepting group bookings. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/47 "2015-08-26T18:33:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Sounds to me like they are unable to accommodate groups. It’s not like it’s a surprise to them they groups can get loud and people don’t like sitting next to large grips. They need to either fix that, of warn groups ahead of time that they will be expected to be quieter than they’d be in a comparable restaurant. > > Maybe the could consider a car they market as having a “lively atmosphere” or have a quiet car for the more sedate. > > You can’t market to both the bachelorette parties and the little old ladies without some kind of plan for making sure both types of patrons have a good experience. If their dining rooms can’t handle groups, they need to stop accepting group bookings. They accommodate groups just fine and some cars are louder than other cars. Most people are there just to have a good time and it gets plenty loud. Some people push that - and if it only happens once a month then it seems clear they’re not having a hard time balancing the little old ladies and bachelorette parties. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/48 "2015-08-26T18:38:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m not sure what exactly is being suggested - should a crowd of African-American people be allowed to be disruptive because they are African-American? Doesn’t or shouldn’t equality mean that everyone has to play by the same rules? I suspect there are some cultural issues at play here. For good or bad, AA women in groups “having a good time” in public can get noisy in a particular way, much more so than any other gender/culture mix I can think of. I can see a dozen black women plus wine plus fun-time getting to be… more than the rest of the passengers could bear. And to be fair, maybe that should read “more than the other mostly white passengers could bear.” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/49 "2015-08-26T19:10:59Z")
I can imagine a group of 10 getting loud enough to disturb others. But if this problem pops up so often that shushing and kicking people off is a regular occurrence, this suggests the company might need to do a better job marketing itself and preparing customers before they board. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/50 "2015-08-26T19:30:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > On the radio yesterday they quoted a spokesperson saying they average kicking people off the train once a month. Unless those turn out to be mostly minorities I am disinclined to assume racism rather than some general uptightness. Surely we’ll start hearing from all the white folks kicked off the train! Crossing this off my List of Things To Do In California.) ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/51 "2015-08-26T20:14:26Z")
Our city had related issue over this summer. It seems a lot of ehtnic groups like to have large gatherings at our city parks (not a problem) and a few of them like to bring their own sound systems along with them for entertainment. Whether it be boomboxes or portable PA systems the city deemed these devices “amplified sound systems” and after getting complaints from neighbors they banned them from the city parks. A few of the ethnic groups tried to fight back against the city claiming the ban was “racist” because as an ethnic group they were not being allowed to celebrate in their customary way. So far the city hasn’t budged from their position. However, to appease these groups they are now looking into finding park land far enough away from residential areas so they can “practice their ethnic traditions”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/52 "2015-08-26T20:22:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But I’m still sticking with me original thoughts here. It’s called a “Wine Train”, not a “Fine Dining Train”, and anyone getting on it who doesn’t realize it’s a bar on wheels is being naive. You shouldn’t expect it to be much different from any of the tasting rooms you’ll be visiting. Why would you? It’s all the same people. But I’ve been to many, many winery tasting rooms and never experienced obnoxiously loud or boisterous behavior. Not ever. Why would there be? The purpose of wine tastings isn’t to get sloshed – it’s to taste, compare, learn, and make decisions about what to buy. This is how you become knowledgeable about wine and build a collection of stuff you like. I’ve also been to many winery restaurants, both casual and the upscale kind with wonderful wine pairings with different courses, and never experienced bad behavior there, either. I would have been terribly disappointed if I had. There are other places that cater to drunks and jackasses, these aren’t those places, or at least they certainly shouldn’t be, and they should therefore maintain their standards accordingly. Sorry, **John** , but for once I’m with **Bone** on this one. The wine train not a “bar on wheels” in the sense that you imply, and if some people want to treat it that way, they would be better served by a sleazy street-corner bar instead of ruining normal people’s wine tasting and dining experience. There, they are welcome to get drunk and loud up to a point, beyond which they’d get thrown out of the sleazy bar, too. > [@XT](#): > > As an anecdotal for instance, my wife and I were at one of the local restaurants in our area a few weeks ago. A (white) couple and their friends were at the restaurant and were drinking. The woman made a huge scene at the restaurant over their bill. They reamed out the waitress, shouted at the manager, threw a plate and a glass on the ground then stormed out without paying. They then flamed the restaurant on Facebook…and got a profound apology and were told if they would come back their next bill would be half price. Now, I don’t know what exactly the issue was (though I have a good idea since they were quite loud), but regardless of what it was they were the ones acting like total asses. Yet, there it was…an apology AND an offer for them to come back next time for half price. It’s the way things work today. The whole episode sounds ridiculous on the part of both parties. Regardless of the unknown details, breaking the plate and glass is destruction of property and “storming out without paying” is plain flat-out theft, and both are criminal offenses. They should have been charged. The restaurant’s self-serving lack of principle here is just going to encourage that kind of behavior, which isn’t good for anyone including the jerks themselves, because in another time and place they may indeed be charged and arrested – this isn’t the kind of offense the cops can just write a ticket for. I have to emphatically disagree that “this is the way the world works today” – I’ve never seen anything like it, and hope I never will. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/53 "2015-08-26T20:42:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But I’ve been to many, many winery tasting rooms and never experienced obnoxiously loud or boisterous behavior. Not ever. Why would there be? The purpose of wine tastings isn’t to get sloshed – it’s to taste, compare, learn, and make decisions about what to buy. This is how you become knowledgeable about wine and build a collection of stuff you like. I’ve also been to many winery restaurants, both casual and the upscale kind with wonderful wine pairings with different courses, and never experienced bad behavior there, either. I would have been terribly disappointed if I had. There are other places that cater to drunks and jackasses, these aren’t those places, or at least they certainly shouldn’t be, and they should therefore maintain their standards accordingly. > > Sorry, **John** , but for once I’m with **Bone** on this one. The wine train not a “bar on wheels” in the sense that you imply, and if some people want to treat it that way, they would be better served by a sleazy street-corner bar instead of ruining normal people’s wine tasting and dining experience. There, they are welcome to get drunk and loud up to a point, beyond which they’d get thrown out of the sleazy bar, too. I guess I just hang out at places that are a lot more fun than you do. I was at one of my favorite tasting room just last night, and it was going off pretty good. This is in a very upscale suburb with many high end, fine dining restaurants. And part of the reason you take the wine train is so you’re not driving. Why do you suppose people want to avoid driving as they wine taste all afternoon? I’m going to have to get you and **Bone** out into the real world some time so you guys can let loose a little!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/54 "2015-08-26T20:49:40Z")
[QUOTE=wolfpup] The whole episode sounds ridiculous on the part of both parties. Regardless of the unknown details, breaking the plate and glass is destruction of property and “storming out without paying” is plain flat-out theft, and both are criminal offenses. They should have been charged. The restaurant’s self-serving lack of principle here is just going to encourage that kind of behavior, which isn’t good for anyone including the jerks themselves, because in another time and place they may indeed be charged and arrested – this isn’t the kind of offense the cops can just write a ticket for. I have to emphatically disagree that “this is the way the world works today” – I’ve never seen anything like it, and hope I never will. [/QUOTE] It was an ugly scene. But I’ve seen similar things, where people complain on social media and the management bends over backwards to accommodate them. This was the most extreme one I’ve seen, for sure, but it is the way things are today. Social media is incredibly powerful, and getting a negative flame can have a very negative effect on a business, especially a local business. Heck, I’ve seen instances in the news where Facebook or Twitter flames can get someone fired or reprimanded. Granted, a lot of times it’s a good thing, but sometimes it’s not. It’s kind of like the ‘flesh searches’ that happen in China…often they are warranted, but sometimes they go to far. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/55 "2015-08-26T20:51:25Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Surely we’ll start hearing from all the white folks kicked off the train! > > Crossing this off my List of Things To Do In California.) Why? Who would brag about getting kicked off a train for being loud, obnoxious, and rude? I’ll add the Wine Train to the list of things I intend to do the next time I’m in California. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/56 "2015-08-26T20:55:35Z")
I think there’s also a cultural thing going on here. How many comedians have made a living off joking about the difference between white people and black people, and the difference between a group of white people and a group of black people? I certainly would expect a different experience getting on a train full of Brazilians vs a train full of Japanese. So maybe we should expect a different experience from a train full of whites and train full of blacks. My own inclination is that if you can’t beat 'em, join 'em. Find out what you’re been missing out on! That is not to say the black ladies should not have toned it down a few notches when asked by the management to do so. I’m just thinking what kind of people complain about noise on a wine train. I think I’d rather be with the noise makers than the noise complainers. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/57 "2015-08-26T21:00:28Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > **Loud people are evil people and cannot be treated cruelly enough.** I am disappointed at the apparent absence of police brutality. Having recently had the misfortune to be seated in a restaurant next to what was apparently a young woman’s engagement party being thrown by some co-workers, I am firmly in the 'throw them from the train" camp. In groups, people can be surprisingly oblivious about their noise levels. What’s more, it’s often the case that people in a group will consciously or unconsciously simultaneously vie for attention, resulting in a cycle of escalating voices. Because they’re all a part of this friendly competition, they have absolutely no perspective on the devastating auditory fallout experienced by other people in the room. Add in a healthy dose of good old American “Fuck you, we don’t have to be quiet, we’re just having a good time here!” and I’d favor unhooking the train car and directing it down a unused rail line into a ravine if one were conveniently available. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/58 "2015-08-26T21:02:43Z")
OMG. Just look at these [hooligans](http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/Wine-train-issues-apology-to-black-women-booted-from-train-322872181.html?tab=video&mobile=y). Especially that scary looking one on the left! No wonder they were kicked off. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/59 "2015-08-26T21:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think there’s also a cultural thing going on here. How many comedians have made a living off joking about the difference between white people and black people, and the difference between a group of white people and a group of black people? I certainly would expect a different experience getting on a train full of Brazilians vs a train full of Japanese. So maybe we should expect a different experience from a train full of whites and train full of blacks. [/QUOTE] This was my first thought, though from my own personal experiences hispanics are very loud and boisterous as well (at least, my own friends and family are that way…especially on anything like a ‘wine train’ :p). Since this happened in California, I’d have to think that this sort of thing would have come up before. And if not, I’m planning a trip to California at the end of the year, so I’ll make sure my friends and family show them how to REALLY get loud and boisterous on a train serving wine. 😉 > [@](#): > > That is not to say the black ladies should not have toned it down a few notches when asked by the management to do so. I’m just thinking what kind of people complain about noise on a wine train. I think I’d rather be with the noise makers than the noise complainers. Honestly, I think there was a racial component to this the more I’m seeing…the fact that they called the police (for the first time in the polices memories at least) is a bit suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894/60 "2015-08-26T21:37:23Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Having recently had the misfortune to be seated in a restaurant next to what was apparently a young woman’s engagement party being thrown by some co-workers, I am firmly in the 'throw them from the train" camp. In groups, people can be surprisingly oblivious about their noise levels. What’s more, it’s often the case that people in a group will consciously or unconsciously simultaneously vie for attention, resulting in a cycle of escalating voices. Because they’re all a part of this friendly competition, they have absolutely no perspective on the devastating auditory fallout experienced by other people in the room. Exactly. Now throw in the effects of alcohol, and you’ve got complete pandemonium. The whole business of dining out in anything more than a McDonald’s isn’t to stuff one’s face with food, it’s all about the experience – which is why the aesthetics of presentation and ambiance are so important and so much attention is paid to those things in a good restaurant, to what is sometimes an obsessive level of detail. And nothing destroys it as completely as the screeching of obnoxious drunks over at the next table, where the one thing you most look forward to is getting the hell out of there. > [@Finagle](#): > > Add in a healthy dose of good old American “Fuck you, we don’t have to be quiet, we’re just having a good time here!” and I’d favor unhooking the train car and directing it down a unused rail line into a ravine if one were conveniently available. A good and fair solution, and the loudmouths are so busy exercising their lungs that they probably wouldn’t even notice! > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess I just hang out at places that are a lot more fun than you do. Loud noise doesn’t equal fun. It’s venue-specific. Noise is fine at kids’ birthday parties and some other kinds of parties, but not every life event is a loud party. There was a loud kids’ birthday party a few houses away the other day with a bouncy castle and all manner of loud activities. I had no problem with it. I would have had a huge problem with it if I had been trying to enjoy a formal tasting menu with wine pairings right beside it at the time. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > OMG. Just look at these [hooligans](http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/Wine-train-issues-apology-to-black-women-booted-from-train-322872181.html?tab=video&mobile=y). Especially that scary looking one on the left! No wonder they were kicked off. They all look like they have a robust set of lungs on them. And never underestimate the ebullience and lung power of the old ones. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laughing-while-black/728894.md?page=4)