# Lauren Hill gets ESPY **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 16, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282 "2015-07-16T01:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282/21 "2015-07-18T14:59:58Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Arguing over an awards ceremony [that gives a player Best Championship Performance without, uh, actually winning a championship](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/07/15/lebron-james-everyone-wonders-why-he-won-espy-for-best-championship-performance/) is the definition of pointless. But you don’t understand. They gave an award to a transgender woman. They let her stand up in front of a large live and television audience and share her experiences and her concerns about transgender issues. They treated a transgender person as someone to be respected and honored, and transgender issues as worthy of our attention and concern. They acted as if being transgender is O.K. There are a lot of people who are not O.K. with that, and they continue to prove that the ESPYs made the right choice. I liked what someone said in an earlier thread: No one attacked Lauren Hill for having cancer. No one opposed her being given an award for her courage. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282/22 "2015-07-18T21:52:13Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > And what great athletic feat did Mr/Ms Jenner perform this year? This being an award for athletes, after all. If an uncontested layup isn’t enough of an athletic feat to qualify, what did Jenner do to best that? Granted, struggling into pantyhose can require some gymnastics at times, but seriously, what athletic feat was performed? While it’s Wikipedia, [this 2012 version of the article](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arthur_Ashe_Courage_Award&oldid=501831799) shows that the Ashe Award has never been limited to sports people. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282/23 "2015-07-19T18:37:25Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > You brought this up twice without elaboration. > > Owning up to her role, how? By taking responsibility for the accident? Initial reports supposedly from her camp was that the Prius Jenner also hit was responsible for hitting the Lexus In which there was a fatality. Once conclusive video surfaced, the story changed. Additionally, her lawyer has defended her in a lawsuit by arguing the deceased adult children don’t deserve compensation because they are adults who weren’t even close to their step mother. > [@](#): > > “In a response to the wrongful death lawsuit filed by the stepchildren of wealthy philanthropist Kim Howe, 69, Jenner’s attorney claimed last week that Howe’s stepdaughter and stepson aren’t entitled to damages because of their financial independence.” Yes, some Of that is standard lawyering, but it gets pretty unseemly when you try to argue supposed (and contested) familial estrangement means you aren’t financially liable. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > But this year, its a transgender, so only now are people whining. > > Like I said, its a stupid ESPY no one cared about until someone who’s life choices they didn’t like won it. I call bullshit on your claim. Just look at the hate the whole Kardashian family gets on a regular basis; the vast majority of which has nothing to do with their genders. People hate them like it’s a sport, and the low stakes of the matter offers no mitigation. People were livid that Kim Kardashian was on the cover of Vogue and that she was interviewed by “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me”. You should have heard the. NPR audience rail against her as if she permanent sullied their station. Similarly, Jenner was regularly insulted by late night hosts for being a weird, milquetoasty, washed up, oddball long before anyone knew about him wanting to be a woman. Now, of course some of those people might hate I’m for being transgender, but I think that fact fuels only a small portion of the animus against her. At best, what you see are people who disagree that sub a decision is an example of courage in the traditional sense. I think it’s fair to disagree with the above, but having that position doesn’t necessarily make you a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282/24 "2015-07-20T05:35:50Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > By taking responsibility for the accident? Initial reports supposedly from her camp was that the Prius Jenner also hit was responsible for hitting the Lexus In which there was a fatality. As you said, supposedly. > [@](#): > > Once conclusive video surfaced, the story changed. Conclusive, so you say. > [@](#): > > Additionally, her lawyer has defended her in a lawsuit by arguing the deceased adult children don’t deserve compensation because they are adults who weren’t even close to their step mother. Thats not a defense. Thats arguing if there is a claim to be made, it shouldn’t be to them. > [@](#): > > Yes, some > Of that is standard lawyering, but it gets pretty unseemly when you try to argue supposed (and contested) familial estrangement means you aren’t financially liable. No, it doesn’t. If someone shoots you, and I try to sue them for money even though we might not even be distant non-blood relatives, I might not have a claim on the money. BTW, has Caitlyn or Bruce Jenner been convicted of anything in the car accident? Just asking . . . . .:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I call bullshit on your claim. Just look at the hate the whole Kardashian family gets on a regular basis; the vast majority of which has nothing to do with their genders. People hate them like it’s a sport, and the low stakes of the matter offers no mitigation. People were livid that Kim Kardashian was on the cover of Vogue and that she was interviewed by “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me”. You should have heard the. NPR audience rail against her as if she permanent sullied their station. > > Similarly, Jenner was regularly insulted by late night hosts for being a weird, milquetoasty, washed up, oddball long before anyone knew about him wanting to be a woman. > > Now, of course some of those people might hate I’m for being transgender, but I think that fact fuels only a small portion of the animus against her. At best, what you see are people who disagree that sub a decision is an example of courage in the traditional sense. I think it’s fair to disagree with the above, but having that position doesn’t necessarily make you a bigot. Aaaaah I hear ya but I find the “People don’t think she deserves the award because of the Kardashians” weak. You have to remember who Bruce Jenner was, or if your not old enough, research and educate yourself. In the late 1970s there were fewer models of male masculinity and perfection than Bruce Jenner. Bruce Jenner was already a Hero before all this. Now you can question whether or not she is a “hero” but to me, it wasn’t a big deal who won the award until Caitlyn won it, and it seems to me, it unleashed a lot of backed up bigoted venom in our society when she did. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282/25 "2015-07-20T16:30:13Z")
What’s to elaborate on? Caitlyn Jenner has been trying to avoid responsibility for the fatal accident. She has not been convicted but will be charged with misdemeanor vehicular manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282/26 "2015-07-23T08:11:55Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Thats not a defense. Thats arguing if there is a claim to be made, it shouldn’t be to them. Of course that is a defense to the lawsuit. How else would you characterize it? > [@russian\_heel](#): > > No, it doesn’t. If someone shoots you, and I try to sue them for money even though we might not even be distant non-blood relatives, I might not have a claim on the money. It a valid legal argument, but a shitty moral one. We are not talking about a third cousin here. These were her kids by all accounts. Delving into how often they interacted in order to mitigate your legal payout is ethically questionable when the evidence shows you are almost certainly 100% responsible for killing someone. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > BTW, has Caitlyn or Bruce Jenner been convicted of anything in the car accident? Just asking . . . . .:rolleyes: I believe they are still investigating, but it doesn’t really speak to her moral culpability either way. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > Aaaaah I hear ya but I find the “People don’t think she deserves the award because of the Kardashians” weak. You have to remember who Bruce Jenner was, or if your not old enough, research and educate yourself. In the late 1970s there were fewer models of male masculinity and perfection than Bruce Jenner. Bruce Jenner was already a Hero before all this. Spare me the condescension. Lots of people WERE supposedly heroes and “models of masculinity and perfection”. Then almost FORTY years passed and they went on to become irrelevant footnotes. Not only because the decathlon is not even considered a major event anymore, but also because Jenner went on to become a walking punchline by appearing in an absurd reality show. I guarantee that the vast majority of people recognize him as the reality show personality and not anyone’s model of perfection. You are simply too firmly rooted in an irrelevant past. He was an Olympian almost 40 years ago. You’d have to be close to 50 for that to have any meaning to you personally. The fact that he used to not be a clown has almost no bearing on the discussion. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > Now you can question whether or not she is a “hero” but to me, it wasn’t a big deal who won the award until Caitlyn won it, and it seems to me, it unleashed a lot of backed up bigoted venom in our society when she did. Again, you missed the point. Being on the cover of Vogue wasn’t a big deal outside the modeling world until KK “sullied” the magazine by appearing on it. It also wasn’t a big deal to be interviewed on NPR until she did it. Few celebrities appearances on an NPR show inspire articles in the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/19/kim-kardashian-appeared-on-npr-and-listeners-are-outraged/), [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/entertainment/wait-wait-kim-kardashian-npr-feat/), [Slate](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/06/18/npr_interviews_kim_kardashian_listeners_revolt.html), and other places. The fact is that hating them is basically a cottage industry, and Jenner is not immune to that. Of course some of the “outrage” is from bigots who hate transpeople, but I think that inspires a minority of the people who are upset about the award. Most of it is from people who really connected to Hill’s story, and wanted to see her struggle validated and recognized, who then became enraged when that was usurped by a weak, pathetic reality star whose story has nothing to do with sports. Most of the people just see this transition being highlighted in the media as more of the Kardashians being “shoved down their throat”. Doubly so because the plight and struggle of rich, conservative republican, reality star, Caitlyn Jenner, bears almost no resemblance to what the average transgender person goes through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lauren-hill-gets-espy/725282.md?page=1)