# Law Degree **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345 "2020-05-23T18:39:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/41 "2020-05-25T21:16:04Z")
Specialist dentists like endodontists and orthodontists usually get an extra MS degree. So they list John Doe DDS MS or DMD MS. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/42 "2020-05-25T22:21:00Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > There are definitely people with a JD/Ph.D., and I’ve even encountered a few MD/JDs. (A doctor AND a lawyer? Your mom must be really proud! 😛 ) My retinal specialist has an MD from Harvard and a JD from Oxford (earned while a Rhodes Scholar). No PhD, though - the slacker… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/43 "2020-05-25T23:20:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I didn’t say “D.Phil.” I said “Doctor Phil.” The professional name of public huckster Phillip Calvin McGraw. This guy: [Phil McGraw - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_McGraw) I am no fan of the guy. Not even a little bit. But, IIRC, he does hold a doctorate degree. He no longer is licensed to practice anywhere in the US (that I am aware of) but doesn’t holding that degree allow him to say he is “Dr.” Phil? To be clear, the guy is a huckster and I am not trying to defend him…he has caused harm IMO and should be reviled. But if he has the degree and it has not been revoked then isn’t he still a doctor? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/44 "2020-05-26T03:32:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But, IIRC, he does hold a doctorate degree. He no longer is licensed to practice anywhere in the US (that I am aware of) but doesn’t holding that degree allow him to say he is “Dr.” Phil? It depends on what degrees you feel entitle a person to call themselves a doctor, which is the topic of the thread. McGraw is not a medical doctor and has never had a medical degree. He has a Doctorate in Clinical Psychology. He was never able to practice medicine. He did have a license in Texas to practice psychology but he gave it up in 2006. For legal reasons, he has stated he does not practice psychology and what he does is give advice. So should he be calling himself a doctor? In my personal opinion, no. If he’s just giving advice, he should not be doing so while identifying himself as a doctor. Identifying himself as a doctor implies he is following some set of professional guidelines. McGraw has no more right to call himself a doctor than Miss Manners or Dear Abby has. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/45 "2020-05-26T12:15:28Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am no fan of the guy. Not even a little bit. > > But, IIRC, he does hold a doctorate degree. He no longer is licensed to practice anywhere in the US (that I am aware of) but doesn’t holding that degree allow him to say he is “Dr.” Phil? > > To be clear, the guy is a huckster and I am not trying to defend him…he has caused harm IMO and should be reviled. But if he has the degree and it has not been revoked then isn’t he still a doctor? The question isn’t whether he is entitled to use the title. The question is how he uses it. And he uses it to falsely imply expertise and authority he doesn’t have. He is using the title in a way that harms people. I don’t care what degrees he holds; that’s reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/46 "2020-05-26T18:28:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > […] > Is there a law that prohibits people from calling themself a doctor? (I really do not know.) For example, I have no training or degree that would anyone would consider a doctor but can I say I am Dr. Whack-a-Mole without legal repercussion? There is such a law in Germany and in Austria, that much is sure. Some political [careers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttenberg_plagiarism_scandal) have been cut short by the misappropiation of a doctor title. In Austria the wife of a doctor can call herself _Frau Doktor_, but I do not know if the husband can do the same in reverse (but I would guess so). The Austrians have a tendency to suffer from acute Title-itis. In Italy (and Argentina, by extension) almost everyone is a doctor (dottore…). In Italy it is less an academic title as an expression of respect, if I understand the use correctly. In Argentina it is a matter of missing academic records, I have been told (by a jealous Spanish doctor with a “real” title). To answer the OP: one law degree is not enough. You need 90 degrees to make a right lawyer. That has never happened so far. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/47 "2020-05-26T18:52:27Z")
To late to edit: the use of [dottore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_honorifics#Work/profession-related_titles) in Italy. Anyone with an academic title is called dottore or dottoressa. _This often confuses foreigners._ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/48 "2020-05-26T18:55:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The question isn’t whether he is entitled to use the title. The question is how he uses it. And he uses it to falsely imply expertise and authority he doesn’t have. He is using the title in a way that harms people. I don’t care what degrees he holds; that’s reprehensible. I am 100% with you on not being a fan of the likes of Dr. Phil or Dr. Oz. It is my opinion that they cause harm and do so solely to enrich themselves. That said, if he has a doctorate then I think he can put “Dr.” before his name until/unless that changes. My brother was a doctor of physics. While he never fussed over people calling him “doctor” he would sign formal documents as “Dr. XXX XXXXX”. Personally, I think Dr. Phil’s degree should be revoked. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/49 "2020-05-26T19:11:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That said, if he has a doctorate then I think he can put “Dr.” before his name until/unless that changes. There’s no certificate that licenses fraud. If he is using “Dr.” in a fraudulent manner, it doesn’t matter if he has a degree certificate with “Dr.” on it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/50 "2020-05-26T19:27:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There’s no certificate that licenses fraud. If he is using “Dr.” in a fraudulent manner, it doesn’t matter if he has a degree certificate with “Dr.” on it. Since when is “Dr.” a certificate that denotes anything other than a level of education achieved? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/51 "2020-05-26T19:31:38Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > Calling someone “Dr.” because they have a J.D. degree is technically correct but no one ever does this in the United States. I often append “esq.” to the names of other lawyers in written professional correspondence but I would never append it to my own name. To do so would be pretentious and rude. Oddly enough, black men that are not lawyers, but know that I’m a lawyer,often refer to me as Doctor for reasons I’ve never understood. Might be peculiar to the rural South. I’ve never encountered it elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/52 "2020-05-26T20:20:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Since when is “Dr.” a certificate that denotes anything other than a level of education achieved? It denotes something in the minds of people who hear it. Which is exactly why the bar association has instructed that lawyers should not use it in a misleading manner. Dr. Phil gives advice. And by calling himself “Dr. Phil,” he implies that this advice is grounded in a level of expertise and authority. That implication exists because of beliefs about the significance of “Doctor” in the minds of the general public. He is capitalizing on that very misperception. That intentional act of deception isn’t excused just because he happens to hold a doctoral degree of some kind. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/53 "2020-05-26T20:35:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It denotes something in the minds of people who hear it. Which is exactly why the bar association has instructed that lawyers should not use it in a misleading manner. > > Dr. Phil gives advice. And by calling himself “Dr. Phil,” he implies that this advice is grounded in a level of expertise and authority. That implication exists because of beliefs about the significance of “Doctor” in the minds of the general public. He is capitalizing on that very misperception. That intentional act of deception isn’t excused just because he happens to hold a doctoral degree of some kind. Are you arguing how things are or how you would like them to be? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/54 "2020-05-26T20:47:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Are you arguing how things are or how you would like them to be? You don’t think that people have beliefs about titles like “Doctor” that other people take advantage of? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/55 "2020-05-26T20:56:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You don’t think that people have beliefs about titles like “Doctor” that other people take advantage of? Sure they do. But we are discussing whether you can put “Dr.” before a name. Do you think that is up to people’s feelings? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/56 "2020-05-26T21:33:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Since when is “Dr.” a certificate that denotes anything other than a level of education achieved? Perhaps not in the USA, but in Germany it is also a _Reifezeugnis_ (literally a certificate of maturity), which means it can be revoqued or withdrawn if you are deemed (by an academic comission from the University that granted the title) immature. Your immaturity may show, for instance, by behaving against the law or the reigning morals. It does not happen often, but it does. From [Wikipedia](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberkennung_eines_akademischen_Grades): Eine Aberkennung kann erfolgen, wenn sich der Bewerber im Prüfungsverfahren zur Erlangung des akademischen Grades einer Täuschung schuldig gemacht hat, etwa eines Plagiats, aber auch, wenn sich eine Person durch späteres wissenschaftliches Fehlverhalten als unwürdig für die Führung des Doktorgrades erweist oder eine bestimmte vorsätzliche Straftat begeht. Lazy translation using [Deepl](https://www.deepl.com/translator): Withdrawal may take place if the applicant is guilty of deception during the examination procedure for the award of the academic degree, such as plagiarism, but also if a person proves to be unworthy to hold the doctoral degree through subsequent scientific misconduct or commits a certain deliberate offence. This withdrawal of a title happens more frequently with [Abitur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur), equivalent to “A levels, the Matura or the International Baccalaureate Diploma, which are all ranked as level 4 in the European Qualifications Framework.” (quoted from the Wikipedia article) ETA: I believe that both Dr. [sic!] Phil and Dr. [sic!] Oz could be stripped of their titles according to German custom and law. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/57 "2020-05-26T21:48:32Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Perhaps not in the USA, but in Germany it is also a _Reifezeugnis_ (literally a certificate of maturity), which means it can be revoqued or withdrawn if you are deemed (by an academic comission from the University that granted the title) immature. Your immaturity may show, for instance, by behaving against the law or the reigning morals. It does not happen often, but it does. US schools can also revoke degrees. Likewise it is rare and I do not think there is any formal entity that determines this. Each school does as they see fit. I wish they were more aggressive about this but I can see why they’d view that as bad business for them and they’d be very reluctant to go there. In the US you’d really need an independent commission to investgatigate and recommend revocation of a degree but I seriously doubt any US university is eager to get such a thing started. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/58 "2020-05-26T22:04:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > […] > In the US you’d really need an independent commission to investgatigate and recommend revocation of a degree **but I seriously doubt any US university is eager to get such a thing started.** (Bolding mine) That is a significant difference between German and US Universities. By custom and tradition German Universities feel they have a reputation to defend and a societal role to fulfill and have reached the conclusion that the best way to do so is by rotting out the bad apples. US Universities, I believe, are more economically oriented and would be more reluctant to do so. US Universities also depend more than German ones on the fees pupils pay, German Universities have a higher level of state funding, that may grant them more leeway in such matters. Yes, I like the German system, that is where I studied. I only know about the US system from hearsay and reading, among other places in this forum; I may appreciate it falsely. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/59 "2020-05-26T22:13:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sure they do. > > But we are discussing whether you can put “Dr.” before a name. > > Do you think that is up to people’s feelings? All false advertising and unfair commercial practices and unfair competition and fraud laws take into account the beliefs and understanding of the people who are hearing your message (what you seem to be calling “feelings”). As I said, the legal profession has explicitly acknowledged this by directing that lawyers may call themselves “doctor,” but only if they aren’t doing it in a misleading manner. That requires the lawyer to consider what people will believe and understand (“feel,” if you will) when they hear that word. So, yes, it matters. If you are calling yourself “doctor” and it’s clear that your customers are thus being misled about what that means about you, and you are taking advantage of that misconception, then it doesn’t matter that you have a degree certificate that says “doctor” on it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/60 "2020-05-26T22:22:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Are you arguing how things are or how you would like them to be? In McGraw’s case, the two are the same. His show is taped in Los Angeles. California law requires you to have a license to practice psychology professionally; it’s a felony. McGraw does not have a license. This is not just a hypothetical matter. McGraw was investigated in 2008. He was not charged but he’s made it a point since then to say he’s giving advice not practicing psychology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345.md?page=4)