# Law Degree **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345 "2020-05-23T18:39:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/61 "2020-05-27T00:59:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The law degrees in the U.S are J.D. (LL.B.), LL.M., and S.J.D. (LL.D.). > > The American Bar Association has ruled that lawyers who hold a J.D. may use “Doctor” as a term of address so long as they are not trying to mislead anyone regarding their qualifications, such as by implying medical expertise (like Doctor Phil does). > > “Esq.” is not regulated by the legal profession. Anyone and everyone may use it. The justice system may intervene if you are using it to imply that you are a licensed lawyer when you are not. Do you happen to remember when or where the ABA said that a J.D. can use “doctor”? I find that surprising since, as you note, the doctorate in law is the LL.D. or S.J.D. However, while the J.D. (or, in the past, its equivalent, the LL.B.) is not a true doctorate, it does require three years of intensive postgraduate study, so is more than a master’s degree. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/62 "2020-05-27T01:27:35Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > Do you happen to remember when or where the ABA said that a J.D. can use “doctor”? I find that surprising since, as you note, the doctorate in law is the LL.D. or S.J.D. > > However, while the J.D. (or, in the past, its equivalent, the LL.B.) is not a true doctorate, it does require three years of intensive postgraduate study, so is more than a master’s degree. I don’t have the source at hand, but it was in an ethics committee ruling or something like that. I don’t think they distinguished between a true Scotsman doctor and … not one. “Juris Doctor” means “doctor of law,” so that was good enough, especially with analogy to “Medicinae Doctor.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/63 "2020-05-27T01:45:50Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > However, while the J.D. (or, in the past, its equivalent, the LL.B.) is not a true doctorate, it does require three years of intensive postgraduate study, so is more than a master’s degree. How do you define a “true doctorate”? ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/64 "2020-05-27T04:27:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How do you define a “true doctorate”? I understand a doctorate to be the most advanced degree in a field, typically following a master’s degree and requiring significant research, often embodied in a thesis or dissertation. That describes the LL.D./S.J.D., but not the J.D. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/65 "2020-05-27T08:13:08Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > I understand a doctorate to be the most advanced degree in a field, typically following a master’s degree and requiring significant research, often embodied in a thesis or dissertation. That describes the LL.D./S.J.D., but not the J.D. so what about MD? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/66 "2020-05-27T10:14:47Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > so what about MD? Qualified surgeons (say in the UK) revert-- are allowed to revert-- from “Doctor” to “Mister/Mistress”, right? But there are historical reasons for this, just as for the habit of addressing physicians as “Doctor”, so I wouldn’t read too much into it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/67 "2020-05-27T12:14:10Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > I understand a doctorate to be the most advanced degree in a field, typically following a master’s degree and requiring significant research, often embodied in a thesis or dissertation. That describes the LL.D./S.J.D., but not the J.D. This distinction doesn’t really matter for the purposes of legal ethics. Logically, a person with a degree that says “Doctor” is a Doctor. The question isn’t whether the degree itself is a “true doctorate” but rather whether its use is misleading in a material way. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/68 "2020-05-27T12:40:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > so what about MD? The M.D. is not a research doctorate, so it does not require a thesis/dissertation, but it is the most advanced degree in its field. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/69 "2020-05-27T13:09:13Z")
Not at all. Someone with an MD can go on to get a PhD in medicine, for a research career in medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/70 "2020-05-27T16:37:24Z")
A few states including CA allow you to read the law which means you work with a lawyer to learn and then you take the bar exam. No law school needed . As strange as it sounds Kim Kardashian says she is doing that route to become a lawyer. Surgeon who took out my gall bladder also had a PhD ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/71 "2020-05-27T18:30:03Z")
WV Law: > [@W.Va. Code §61-10-21. Unlawful use of prefix “Doctor” or “Dr.” penalty.](#): > > It shall be unlawful for any person to use the prefix “Doctor” or “Dr.” in connection with his name in any letter, business card, advertisement, sign or public display of any nature whatsoever, without affixing thereto suitable words or letters designating the degree which he holds. Any person who shall violate the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof shall be fined for each such offense not less than $10 nor more than $500, or imprisoned in the county jail not more than twelve months, or both fined and imprisoned, in the discretion of the court. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/72 "2020-05-27T19:03:37Z")
So Dr. Dre can never set foot in WV ?? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/73 "2020-05-27T19:24:11Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > So Dr. Dre can never set foot in WV ?? On the few times there is any discussion about the law, yeah, it seems as if Dr. Dre or Dr. J would run afoul of the law if they came to WV and advertised an appearance. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/74 "2020-05-27T19:48:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > On the few times there is any discussion about the law, yeah, it seems as if Dr. Dre or Dr. J would run afoul of the law if they came to WV and advertised an appearance. Dr. J has an honorary doctorate from UMass as well as an honorary doctorate (in dance) from Temple. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/75 "2020-05-27T21:30:35Z")
West Virginia was forced to enact this law after all those times when Doctor Doom attacked Huntington and the Fantastic Four couldn’t be bothered to fight any crime outside of Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/76 "2020-05-27T21:37:51Z")
Almost every school that gave Bill Cosby an honorary doctorate revoked the degree. He had around 40. Catholic church has Doctors of the Church but they are all long dead. [Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church) ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/77 "2020-05-27T22:30:57Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Almost every school that gave Bill Cosby an honorary doctorate revoked the degree. He had around 40. > > Catholic church has Doctors of the Church but they are all long dead. > > [Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church) But Cosby also has a doctorate in education from the University of Massachusetts, which as far as I know has not been revoked. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/78 "2020-05-27T22:38:08Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > But Cosby also has a doctorate in education from the University of Massachusetts, which as far as I know has not been revoked. Could they even do that? I mean, he went to class, passed the tests, and earned the degree. Just because he did a real bad thing later in life doesn’t change the fact that he passed the prescribed course of study. Can they take away his high school diploma or his victory in the Third Grade Spelling Bee? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/79 "2020-05-28T00:19:30Z")
I wouldn’t have thought so. Sounds like a unilateral contract to me: “You pay us find o’money, take classes as we prescribe, pass exams and do all the assignments, and if you meet our grading requirements, we give you a degree.” Unless there’s a moral turpitude clause in there (and I’ve never seen one in a university sign-up), don’t see how they could revoke because you do bad things later in life. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345/80 "2020-05-28T07:39:57Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Could they even do that? I mean, he went to class, passed the tests, and earned the degree. Just because he did a real bad thing later in life doesn’t change the fact that he passed the prescribed course of study. Can they take away his high school diploma or his victory in the Third Grade Spelling Bee? Based on some online research, a college can revoke your degree. But only based on the belated discovery of things you did in college. So Cosby’s earned doctorate could not be revoked based on his conviction for rapes he committed years later. But if he was convicted of an old rape case that dated back to when he was a student, they could retroactively declare that he had violated the school’s rules, even though they were unaware of it at the time, and therefore should not have been awarded his doctorate and take it back. This also applies for the discovery of non-criminal academic violations like cheating, plagiarism, or faking your research results. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-degree/854345.md?page=5)