# law enforcement agencies = "standing armies"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225 "2007-06-16T04:54:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/1 "2007-06-16T04:54:12Z")
Would the Founding Fathers have considered modern law enforcement agencies, especially federal ones like the FBI, the equivalent of “standing armies”? That is, trained armed personell serving the government and ready and able to use force against the public? How was civil order enforced at the time the Constitution was written? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/2 "2007-06-16T04:59:01Z")
They had police in the 1700s ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/3 "2007-06-16T05:10:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lumpy] Would the Founding Fathers have considered modern law enforcement agencies, especially federal ones like the FBI, the equivalent of “standing armies”? [/quote] 1. Yes, definitely. 2. So what? They were no wiser than we – and they were fools to fear “standing armies” as such. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/4 "2007-06-16T05:11:27Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] They had police in the 1700s [/QUOTE] Don’t think so. [could be wrong though.](http://www.lansingpolice.com/site/History/law_enforcement.htm) ---
**Author:** ![snetplit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@snetplit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snetplit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/5 "2007-06-16T05:12:08Z")
[QUOTE=Lumpy] Would the Founding Fathers have considered modern law enforcement agencies, especially federal ones like the FBI, the equivalent of “standing armies”? That is, trained armed personell serving the government and ready and able to use force against the public? How was civil order enforced at the time the Constitution was written? [/QUOTE] The FBI has some skilled fine people, but when the people really get unruly they call in the national guard. That and the FBI and most other law enforcement agencies operate within civilian law, where as armies operate under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Honestly the country has changed so much, I really don’t think they’d be able to make much sense of it. Given the very limited government they initially setup I think they’d be more shocked at the expansion of the federal government, the cival war, reconstruction, expansion to the sea, globalism, the vote being extended to anyone over 18; not just white men over 21, the world wars, the interstate highway system, genetically modified organisms, genetics in general, the space race, communism, France being enemy and Britain being an ally, technology, the internet, rapid travel, tv, automobiles, the persistence of Canada’s sovereignty ect. I don’t think they’d know where to start, but I bet they’d be pleased to know the document they wrote as successfully adapted to this brave new world. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/6 "2007-06-16T06:36:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 1. So what? They were no wiser than we – and they were fools to fear “standing armies” as such. [/QUOTE] Yeah, if only the Founders had added a provision to the Constitution that allowed the government to maintain a standing army and a navy. Live someplace where a bunch of young horny military men are permitted to stay in your house and then come and tell me that worrying about a standing army is foolish. Marc ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/7 "2007-06-16T06:42:35Z")
When police forces were first implemented in many cities there were riots against the notion of creating a standing army to police the populace. I would come up with a cite, but I don’t know what search string to put in, and putting riot and police into the search string is not very helpful for what I think should be obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/8 "2007-06-16T13:31:41Z")
The US Marshals were created in 1789. I’m just not seeing that the FBI is any huge leap from the Marshals. [http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/history/oldest.htm](http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/history/oldest.htm) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/9 "2007-06-16T13:57:55Z")
Here is a site with a [history of law enforcement](http://www.realpolice.net/police-history.shtml) starting way, way back. > [@](#): > > It’s widely recognized that the first organized police force were the Roman vigiles, the first group of nonmilitary and nonmercenary police. They were created by Gaius Octavius, the grand nephew of Julius Caesar, around 27 B.C. After his uncle was assassinated, little Octavius swore revenge and rose to power with a desire to reform Roman society. Once he became ruler, he took the name Augustus Caesar, or more simply Augustus, the first emperor of Rome. The site credits London with creating the first professional police force in 1829. I take “professional” to mean full time police who were trained in police work. It was headed by Sir Robert Peel and the police were called Bobbies or sometimes Peelies. The New York Police Department was the first organized, professional police force in the US. Police forces in the US were largely a response to a series of riots in the early 1800’s. > [@](#): > > Starting around 1835, a series of industrial and race riots began sweeping across America, mostly involving Irish and Native Americans. Cities responded by assigning their police forces the riot control function, but they soon discovered that a volunteer, night-oriented watch system was inadequate. Day watches were likewise ineffective. Full-time, salaried police officers were needed. 1845 in New York City is the generally accepted date and place for the start of paid, professional policing in America. They were called Coppers, after the copper stars they wore as badges on their Peelian uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-enforcement-agencies-standing-armies/408225/10 "2007-06-16T14:53:16Z")
[QUOTE=snetplit] …I don’t think they’d know where to start, but I bet they’d be pleased to know the document they wrote as successfully adapted to this brave new world. [/QUOTE] While I find your other points quite valid, some of what I’ve read suggests a number of them would be shocked at this one. So many found the Constitution to be such a compromise that they might be horrified to know we haven’t had another Constitutional Convention in over two hundred years.