Law People: Let's do this again. Is a finger an object?

How about an original intent argument?

Do you think if you went back to the people who enacted the law against penetrating a vagina or anus with an object and asked them if they intended there to be an exception for a finger, any of them would have said yes? I can’t see that happening.

In fact, a finger is probably the second object you would think of if you were asked what somebody might use to penetrate a vagina or anus. So I feel that the framers of the law must have considered this scenario. And the fact that they didn’t write the law in such a manner as to rule out a finger, means they intended the law to cover fingers.

This is good stuff, Muffin, and I think it should set the matter to rest definitively.

Although you say this case had been presented to UltraVires previously in the thread. I can’t find a previous reference to this case, and this is not the same case that I was referring to in my posts.

In fact, I think you’ve done a considerably better job of making the case than I did. My argument was a series of logical inferences, based on the type of conviction, the specific conditions required for such a conviction, and the specific facts known about the case. You have cited a direct discussion by the appeals court where it clearly finds that a finger qualifies as an object for the purpose of defining sexual intrusion. That’s stronger than the case that I was able to make based on the Memorandum Decision in WV v. Roger P.

This reminds me of an argument I participated in by proxy, between one of my kids and a science teacher - the teacher’s position was that when you eat food, it isn’t really ‘inside’ you because the digestive canal of the human body is open at both ends and therefore topologically, the ingested food isn’t inside the body.

I just told my kid* to just wait until the teacher bends over to pick up the chalk, then ram a broomstick right up his arse. He can surely have no cause for complaint, because by his own insufferable logic, the broomstick isn’t really ‘inside’ him.

(*I mean, I made it clear I was joking)

Yeah, these thought exercises are much more enjoyable when they don’t include the goal of helping a sexual predator get a lighter sentence.

I certainly have no objection to an accused making any available argument, but “a finger is not an object” doesn’t seem like a winner to me. It’s not like the defendant wouldn’t know he was committing a crime. “A finger is an object you say? I had no idea. No idea at all. I guess I should have used a coke bottle.”

Thanks. Yeh, I mistakenly had it in my head that the Roger P. case that you cited was the court of first instance of the appeal case that I cited. I think I was pretty much out of it when I was posting between 6 & 7 am, for I had been up all night swimming in CanLii databases on another matter.

Thank you for the cite. I have read that decision before and it contained no discussion of the element and it is unknown if it was briefed properly. The young girl in that instance stated that the defendant had inserted both his penis and his finger inside her.

The Court seemed to assume, without analysis, that a finger is an object. Perhaps analysis would come to a different answer.

Also, thank you for your advice on how to research case law, but I know how to do that. The federal statute that was cited made it a point to make a note that a finger was an object. WV law does not do that.

Again, when I post threads here, I am just looking for discussion; if you think I’m a shitty lawyer, then have at it, but it does good to have these debates here as it opens the mind to different areas of thought and prevents tunnel vision.

  1. I am not writing a brief or making an oral argument on here;

  2. My guy is innocent until proven guilty. If he is guilty, which he may not be, my job is to make any available argument in mitigation of his crime/potential exposure.

It never occured to me that you were a lawyer, let alone a shitty one.

Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be directed at you.

How it was briefed is completely irrelevant to the point that Muffin was making. The court’s argument is relevant even if it was badly briefed. Even if the girl stated that the defendant inserted his penis, that doesn’t change the point that the court was making in Muffin’s cite.

The defendant was arguing that he had only penetrated her with his finger, and therefore the court should only have instructed the jury on a charge of sexual abuse and not a charge of sexual assault. The court essentially argued, however, that this distinction was irrelevant. The court noted that her vagina had been penetrated, and that there was no testimony conflicting with this assertion, and therefore sexual intrusion had occurred, and thus an instruction on sexual assault was appropriate.

Basically, the court was saying, “We have testimony that her vagina was penetrated with something, and nothing contradicts that testimony, so it doesn’t really matter what that something was, because if her vagina was penetrated then an instruction of sexual assault was appropriate because the act of either sexual intercourse [penis] or sexual intrusion [object] took place.”

It stands to reason that the court therefore defined a finger as an object for the purpose of the analysis.

Yes, the court did seem to assume that. Maybe because the court believed that a finger is so clearly and obviously an “object” that the subject requires no explicit discussion.

But if your point is to have a general discussion, and not present a legal brief specific to West Virginia law, then you can’t just dismiss the federal statute. You said earlier in the thread that, in the law, you had "never heard anyone refer to a body part as an ‘object.’ " My purpose in providing the citation was to show that there are, in fact, people in the law who define a body part as an object.

You seem to jump back and forth between two different types of discussion—a legal discussion specific to West Virginia, and a general ontological or even metaphysical discussion of the nature of an object—depending on which one seems to support your pre-existing assumptions most conveniently at any given time.

Right now, I’m thinking how awesome it would be to be on this jury. I see UV getting all hopeful because the deliberations are taking so long. But they would be taking so long because laughing our asses off for three hours takes time.

Your post #37 was a lovely thing. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

I understand that the case is very persuasive. And the common opinion seems to be that I am engaging in pettifoggery by my definition. Further, the well has been poisoned because many posters cannot get past the fact that if they agree with my thought, then a potential sex offender gets a lesser punishment.

I just think that under plain text or plain meaning, it would be a stretch for an English speaker to refer to a finger as an object.

I don’t think you’re a shitty lawyer. I’ve dealt with more than a few lawyers in my days, both good and bad. With that background, and given the way you post here, I don’t think you’re a real lawyer at all.

But what do you actually want here?

You say this case is persuasive, and yet it does not seem to change your mind about the fundamental issue at the heart of the thread. It seems to me, basically, that you just want people to agree with you. But if that’s the case, then you’re probably not going to get any joy from this discussion, because people aren’t going to change their mind just because you don’t think a finger should be considered an object.

You have the absolute right to your own ideas about the definition of an object, but when lots of other people disagree, and when the court system itself seems to take for granted that a finger is an object for the purposes of defining sexual intrusion, I’m not sure what more you want from the discussion…

Perhaps, but that’s not the basis of my disagreement with you.

I understand that one of the jobs of a lawyer is to read statutes carefully, and to make arguments based on such careful readings. In the case of this particular statute, I would not be surprised to learn that a defense lawyer had argued for a charge of sexual abuse rather than sexual assault based on an instance of digital penetration. It is quite conceivable to me that some lawyer might try to convince a court that a finger is not an object under the statute. And if a lawyer did that, my basic opinion would be that the lawyer was just doing his or her job, and trying to make the strongest possible defense of the client.

In fact, it looks like this might be what happened in the case cited by Muffin, although because we don’t have access to the briefs or the oral arguments, we can’t be sure exactly what the defense lawyer argued.

Just out of curiosity, if you came upon a small hole in a wall, and there was a sign alongside saying:

It is prohibited to insert any object into this hole

would you assume that inserting your finger would be OK?

If your answer to that question is “Yes,” I’m going to suggest that you’re probably in a small minority.

I’ve seen that movie. You’ll never believe what happened next!

English speaking family since the very beginnings of Middle English, English university and college prof, senior technical writer, and yet I don’t find it a stretch at all. Nor did your Court of Appeal.

Of course you are fluent in English, but perhaps you have not been focused on English usage. Perhaps you are used to certain words being used a certain way, such that when they are used in a way that you are not used to, you do not accept them and assume that most folks share your discourse register, leaving you not grokking what others find normal. It’s no biggie as long as you don’t get fixed in your position to the point of hitting your head against the wall, and you make efforts to learn why others have different discourse registers.

In the matter at hand, if a finger were not to be considered to be an object, that would leave a hole in the law that seeks to penalize penetration, despite fingers being objects that are frequently used to penetrate.

As markn+ noted, both Merriam Webster’s and Oxford’s definitions would cover objects such as fingers. These are the two premier publishers of English dictionaries.

Since the legislature would not chose to leave a hole in the law, and since applying the primary definitions given by the two leading English dictionaries would not leave a hole in the law, IMHO the appeal court did not need to go any deeper into whether or not a finger is an object in the context of the legislation in the context of public policy.

It is fair game to argue against the obvious, for sometimes one hits paydirt, so by all means debate the issues of whether a thumb is a finger and whether a finger is a digit and whether a digit is an animate object and whether an animate object is an object and whether an object can predicate the statute’s clause or penetrate a person 'cause it’s a thumb. I would not expect the Court of Appeal to chase its own tail over this sort of thing, and I would not expect a lawyer to take a run at it, for it would be a waste the court’s time, the lawyer’s time, and the client’s money – at least up around here in Soviet Kanukistan, for I have no idea how statutes are interpreted in the USA.

When it comes to statutory interpretation, I start with three basics to see if my interpretation is likely to run into trouble. If my interpretation fits all three of these three basics, then I cautiously proceed. If it doesn’t then I have a lot of work to do before I run with it.

– Plain meaning. Does the statute work when applying the ordinary meaning of the words?

– Mischief. What mischief is the statute trying to remedy, and what interpretation of the words in the statute will lead to a remedy?

– Golden Rule. Don’t be a jerk. What interpretation of the words in the statute will not be contrary to public policy?

When applying these basics, it leaves me with a finger being an object in accordance with the primary definition in both of the two top English dictionaries, so it passes muster for being a plain meaning.

The statute is trying to prohibit penetration, and interpreting object in accordance with the primary definition in both of the two top English dictionaries supports the statutes goal of prohibiting penetration. The finger is object that is plugging the hole in the dyke (don’t go there you dirty minded people). Pulling the finger out of the law would leave a hole in law.

Interpreting object as per the primary definition in both of the two top English dictionaries is not contrary to the public policy of prohibiting the pervy penetration –
including forbidden fingering – of children’s privates.

Having met these three basics, I’d move on.

For a better explanation of these three basics, have a boo at Driedger and Sullivan on the Construction of Statutes.

On the teeter totter balancing literalists and contextualists, I’m not just a contextualist – I’m a pragmatist, so for me, sometimes plain meaning alone does not cut it, and sometimes the legislative intent is not up to speed. US Republicans would call me supporter of judicial activism.

Literalists who find this way too fuzzy-wuzzy-hippie-dippy and are curious about this approach, or who just can’t get the mindset of folks who figure that a finger is an object, might enjoy reading the Supreme Court of Canada’s decision in Rizzo & Rizzo Shoes Ltd. (Re), [1998] 1 SCR 27, 1998 CanLII 837 (SCC) (yes, I realize that shoes are for toes rather than fingers, but just go along with me on this one), the Ontario Court of Appeal’s decision in Rooney v. ArcelorMittal S.A., 2016 ONCA 630, and most significantly, Ruth Sullivan’s “Statutory Interpretation in the Supreme Court of Canada that makes the hop from contextualism to good ol’ boy git 'er done pragmatism.” It will take a while to read, but hopefully it will give you a better understanding of what goes into statutory interpretation (at least how we do it in the Great White), and leave you with some tools with which you can apply to your interpretation of your penetrating object statute.

Just out of curiosity, if you came upon a small hole in a wall, and there was a sign alongside saying:

It is prohibited to insert any object into this hole

would you assume that inserting your finger would be OK?
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When I was three, one of the Crosby’s Molasses kids told me to stick my finger in a hole, so I did. Turned out it was a wasp nest. If I came across a small hole in a wall today, and there was a sign alongside saying: “It is prohibited to insert any object into this hole,” I would encourage that kid to stick his finger in it.

If my finger had been severed in an accident, and by great force it became lodged in your arm, would your surgeon say they removed a body part, or a foreign object?