Law question: forced testimony? [open spoilers in thread]

While we’re on the subject – is it true that a witness can’t take the fifth only for certain questions (That is, that it’s an all-or-nothing thing)?

I seem to remember from a Law & Order episode that a witness wanted to give evidence in a criminal trial, and did answer the prosecutor’s questions. But then the defense attorney asked a question that would incriminate the witness. He tried to take the fifth, but was told that either his entire testimony would be thrown out or he’d have to answer the incriminating question – you can’t invoke the fifth for only part of your testimony. Is this how it works?

Another question – if a witness is given immunity for a crime that could be charged in more than one court, say something that is both a federal and state crime, does the immunity granted give him immunity in both courts? I think this was a plot point in a recent episode of Major Crimes – the witness was told he had immunity for a drug crime, and I’m pretty sure it was casually mentioned that the LA district attorney would not charge him. Then after he ratted out his friend for murder (this was during police questioning, not in court if it matters) he was arrested by the FBI because he had crossed state lines to get the drugs.

Addressed in the comic linked previously.

See this pageand the page following.

I don’t know if they *can *do that, but I know they *shouldn’t *do it. It’s a trade-off. Let one bad guy go free, for testimony that gets several worse guys sent to jail. It only works if the promise of immunity can be trusted. If they get a reputation for cheating on the deal then nobody else will accept it.

I think that’s called the “sword and shield” doctrine LexisNexis Practice Guide: Florida Civil Procedure: Motions - Henry Latimer, Barry R. Davidson, Ervin A. Gonzalez, Stephen H. Grimes, Luke S. Brown - Google Books

I don’t see the connection between carbon balls and the Fifth Amendment. Can you please clarify?

Wow … they’ve really dumbed down law school these days …

Apologies. Wrong link posted.

This pageand page following.

Perhaps I’m reading all this wrongly but it seems to me that the Fifth Amendment doesn’t offer much protection to an individual at all and that immunity from prosecution doesn’t mean a lot either.

In other words you can plead the Fifth, the government or prosecutors can say ‘no, you can’t because we’re giving you immunity whether you like it or not’, and if you don’t like it then you’re in deep shit, then afterwards turn around and tell you that you didn’t actually have immunity for that stuff the defense counsel asked you even though you had to answer or all your testimony would have been thrown out and then we would have been real mad with you or oh wait a minute we didn’t say the feds wouldn’t go after you and look, here they come to arrest you.

Rather than protecting you it would appear that some rights you need protection from. :slight_smile:

If the prosecution really offers you immunity, they can’t go back on it.

And forcing immunity on a witness is extremely rare, and is not used as a tactic to get the witness to admit to something outside the bounds of the immunity agreement and prosecute them for that. If you really want to put the perp behind bars, you prosecute them, you don’t offer them immunity and hope and pray they say something incriminating about an unrelated case on the stand.

But yes, it’s true that if you are given immunity to testify about killing Alice, and on the stand you also admit to killing Bob and Carol, you’ve just screwed yourself and can still be prosecuted for Bob and Carol’s murders.

But also note that immunity isn’t just a verbal agreement between you and some random guy you met one time. Maybe run that shit by your lawyer first before you agree testify because one guy told you it would be fine.

I’m fairly sure only the judge can grant immunity … the prosecution can only request it …

The only time I’ve seen this used is when a friend of mine was busted for growing pot … the prosecution brought in the next door neighbor to testify … next door neighbor was good friends with my friend and so he took the Fifth … immunity was granted and the next door neighbor had to testify …

The key point is that the next door neighbor wasn’t involve in the crime in any way, nor any crime as far as the prosecution was concerned … the prosecutor just wanted some eye witness testimony and the next door neighbor didn’t want to cause a rift in the neighborhood …

The punch line is my friend and his neighbor did remain friends afterward … the testimony wasn’t near as damning as the two ten-wheelers of pot plants the sheriff’s dep’t hauled off …

I’d like to think this is the far more common use of immunity in a courtroom … some people have very good reasons to not testify against someone else … friends, neighbors, lovers … I’m in eviction court more than I like to admit and occasionally either the landlord or tenant try to bring in another tenant for testimony … the judge has always shooed the other tenant off and refused to hear anything from them … way too many problems come about afterwards even if the testimony isn’t considered tainted …

According to Cornell no.

But I asked that question some time back and the answer was immunity protects you from any criminal prosecution.

My question is if forced to testify because of immunity, can your testimony be used against you in a civil case?

This issue came up in a Perry Mason novel, The Case of the Ice-Cold Hands, by Erle Stanley Gardner. The DA gave immunity to a man and then told him he had to tell the court where he got money. (He thought the answer was from his sister, Mason’s client, which would be evidence she’d murdered someone.) Instead, the man said he’d gotten the money from the victim after murdering him.

The DA wasn’t happy. The man was lying anyway.

Yes.

There is no protection against remedies that a civil case may exact. So your compelled testimony may generally be used again you in a civil case.

A federal grant of transactional immunity is not binding on the states. But a state cannot prosecute you using testimony that was compelled in a federal proceeding. So of the state can independently assemble evidence not derived from your testimony, they can try you. This was made clear in a case called Murphy v Waterfront Commission.

My question on this, is surely no court can give blanket immunity in all jurisdictions?

If the feds give you immunity and force you to testify about a crime you took part in, what’s to stop state or city (or even foreign) courts from using your testimony against you in future case? So sure that is blatantly contradicting the 5th Amendment?

What’s to stop them? The 5th Amendment.

As Bricker said, even if you only have transactional immunity, your testimony can’t be used against you in any criminal case. Now that you’ve confessed to some crime the cops might try to develop some useable evidence against you, but your forced testimony cannot.

Obviously foreign courts aren’t bound by the 5th Amendments so if you testify in American courts to a crime in a foreign jurisdiction maybe you shouldn’t leave the country any time soon. Turns out foreigners have their own goofy laws, being foreigners and all.

So is that testimony leading to “fruit of the poisoned tree”, like improperly extracted questioning? Once you testify where to find the dead body, shovel and murder weapon, neither the feds nor the state can use that against you? Or the hidden shovel, or the murder weapon - nor now start looking at traffic cams on the way to the burial site, nor the store the shovel was bought from? I.e. anything they could infer from your testimony? Or can they trot out the “we would have found it eventually” excuse?

Also, is immunity blanket? I.e. any federal case, any federal court? (Or, state?) I recall a case in L&O - where else - where the perp was given immunity “for all crimes in the jurisdiction of this court” and after he revealed what they wanted, “ha, ha, this is the Manhattan court, you committed some crimes in Brooklyn. Sayonara!”

It’s well to remember that immunity agreements can arise in two contexts.

(1) As an inoculation against your own invocation of the Fifth Amendment:

PROSECUTOR: Where did you go after work on February 14th?
ACCUSED: I refuse to answer. Fifth Amendment.
THE COURT: OK, you have use and derivative use immunity for anything you say. Now you can’t take the Fifth.
ACCUSED: I went to Fisherman’s Wharf and did some mopery while creeping.

(2) As a bribe to secure your testimony against others:

US ATTORNEY: Counselor, we’ve got your client dead to rights on sixteen counts of mopery with intent to creep. But we’re interested in Mr. Big. If your guy tells us about the day he heard Mr. Big order the unicorn killed, and he’s willing to say it at Big’s trial, we’ll give him immunity on all the mopery charges.

Note that immunity arising from scenario (2) binds only the federal government. If there’s a state statute against mopery, then a prosecution is still possible.

But immunity secured under scenario (1) means that any state prosecution can’t use the compelled testimony. Even though the immunity DEAL doesn’t bind the states, the state prosecution still must comply with the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits any compelled testimony being used against you. So the testimony that was compelled by the federal government, and evidence derived from that testimony, is off limits to a state prosecutor. Or, in the Law and Order example, if the immunity agreement specified only the New York County DA, then the Kings County DA could certainly still prosecute. Immunity agreements are construed by the courts according to the principles of contract law, just like other agreements.

They can trot out that excuse, but it’s the prosecution, and not the defendant, that bears the burden of proving that claim to be true. In other words, if a platoon of police are searching a state park inch by inch, they can easily demonstrate that they would have reached the spot under the four palm trees in the next couple of days. But if they had no idea before you testified that the money was buried, let alone in a state park, let alone under the “Big W,” then their claim will probably fall short.

Was he then charged with perjury?

An intriguing variation on this theme emerges when the defence wants to immunise someone.

In Australia and other Commonwealth places (subject to local specific variations) the fundamental idea is that the decision to prosecute is ultimately one for the prosecution, and it is a violation of the separation of powers for courts to become involved in granting immunities no matter how convenient that might be.

So let us suppose that Imogen Innocent is charged with murder. Her position is that she did not do it. She claims that it was Dave Dastard who did it. The prosecution snort in derision at her claim.

To make good her claim, she wants to call Dave Dastard to the stand in the defence case. (Let us overlook minor forensic embuggerances like the problems that might emerge with the form of questions that can asked in evidence in chief).

The Crown aren’t going to immunise Dave - to them this is a red herring. There is no prosecutiorial interest being advanced by this, not even the general obligation to be fair. The Crown will not immunise a person who they do not think did it.

So all Imogen can do is call Dave, who will then claim privilege. This is unsatisfactory from her perspective. While the mere fact of claiming privilege is suspicious, there is no guarantee that the jury will consider that that fact alone raises a reasonable doubt. Indeed it is quite unlikely to. The jury will want to hear evidence.

So what is Imogen to do?

In the state of Western Australia, parliament was persuaded to pass legislation that allowed a judge to grant immunity in these circumstances to Dave. Doesn’t presently matter whether it is transactional or U/DU immunity.

The problem was that until Dave actually gave evidence, the judge was in no position to determine the validity of the claim. And Dave is not going to give an account of himself until he has immunity. So judges, in the interests of the accused, were granting immunity on essentially the basis that Imogen said it was Dave.

This led to a huge problem.

Let us suppose now it is not Imogen and Dave, but Fat Tony and Johnny Tightlips.

Fat Tony has whacked a stoolie. He wants to create reasonable doubt. He calls Johnny Tightlips to confess. Johnny knows all about the killing because Fat Tony has told him all about it. Johnny can safely, and falsely, claim responsibility. This might very well create a reasonable doubt. Fat Tony goes free. Johnny is at risk for perjury, but that risk is very low. The evidence to prove he perjured himself is the same evidence that failed to convict Fat Tony.

As soon as this scam emerged, WA rapidly changed is laws back again.

So how is this problem (of the defence needing to immunise potential witnesses) solved in the US?