# Law School or a PhD? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152 "2010-12-23T04:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/41 "2010-12-24T14:00:18Z")
I thought of this thread while reading this Economist article this morning - [Doctoral Degrees: The Disposable Academic](http://www.economist.com/node/17723223?story_id=17723223). ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/42 "2010-12-24T14:36:50Z")
Can you somehow combine the fields? Any chance of being a lawyer that deals with music in some form? Or vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/43 "2010-12-24T15:02:54Z")
I’m not particularly anti-law school, but the OP reminds me of all my classmates who ended up loathing law school. It’s a professional degree, not three years in intellectual exploration. Just keep that in mind. I have a JD from a top 25 law school, practiced for 5 years (was never unemployed) and am about 1/4 of the way through an MBA at what is considered a “national” program (i.e. it’s a core school for the big name banks, consulting companies etc). You know what I’d do if I could turn back time? Get an MD! And this is in spite of the fact that I absolutely love my MBA program. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/44 "2010-12-24T15:09:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I dunno. Sometimes, I wonder why so many practing lawyers are, well, down on the practice of law. > > Certainly, the job can suck at times, and I like a good parody as much as the next guy - but really, when it comes right down to it, how many occupations can one go into, without much in the way of start-up capital or serious connections, and have a chance at making a good professional-type salary? > > Certainly, one could go into medicine, or engineering, or accounting, or dentistry, etc. … but all of these have drawbacks, too. None are exactly easy to get into, require lengthy apprenticeships and/or difficult-to-master skills, can be deadly boring or require an absurd amount of dedication and work … those lawyers complaining about overwork can always take what comfort they can from medical residents, for example; and, while law can be boring at times, what about being an accountant? If one isn’t dedicated to helping people medically, who’d want to have their hands inside someone’s colon all day, like a surgeon, or be cleaning the crap out of people’s teeth like a dentist? At least as a lawyer, I get to sit in my office. 😃 > > Law has some advantages: the work _can_ be very intellectually fulfilling; it _can_ be very well paid. And no need to have your hand inside someone’s colon, if you don’t want to. 😉 > > Thing is, the OP is in the enviable position of not really _needing_ the money. He doesn’t need to go into a professional-type career. I have to say that I disagree-I found when I was working on corporate transactions that the most interesting work was done by the MBAs. And in spite of the “doctoral” status of my degree, the legal work was really quite ancillary and specialised compared to the larger economic/business questions they were responsible for dealing with it. This is why I ended up jumping ship. YMMV of course, but having finished law school and 1/4th of the way through the MBA…the MBA course and work is 10000X more interesting than anything I ever did in law school. Oh, and bonus, 99% of the kids are well-adjusted because they screen for personality disorders through the interview process. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/45 "2010-12-24T15:59:32Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’m a trial lawyer, and the law isn’t something for people who aren’t truly and obsessively compelled to do it. I dunno - if you are lucky enough to get a decent job after law school - either government or corporate in-house - you can just pursue it as a pretty good and decent paying job. At least that has been my experience. If I could find something that interested me more and paid as much for the same effort, I’d jump at it. The toughest thing about the law (well, apart from the subject matter/mindset which may not appeal to everyone) is the need to get a job once you graduate. Sure, you can always hang out your own shingle, but I would think it stressful to be waiting for your paycheck and expenses to walk in the door every month. And not only do you need the work, but you then need to collect… I consider it a simple fact that there are far too many lawyers in the US, with tens of thousands more turned out every year. In such an environment, you either have to be exceptionally talented, exceptionally driven, or exceptionally lucky - actually, most likely some combination of the 3. As an ALJ, the last time I wore a suit was the day I was sworn in. Shirt and tie under my robe on the days I have hearings, casual every other day. For experience: if you know any lawyers, simply ask them if you can “shadow” them for a day or more. You could also just hang out in courtrooms - but very few lawyers spend the majority of their time in court, so that would only give you a partial picture. You could always try to get a menial job in a law firm - as a secretary, mail room worker, clerk, etc. Or volunteer for a legal service. In my experience, to the extent any generalities can be made, the majority of most attorneys’ time is spent reading, writing , and talking on the phone. So the big thing is whether or not you can stand the subject matter and folk you are dealing with. What concerns me a tad about the OP is that if these are the only 2 options you find “compelling” - well, you sure don’t sound too enthusiastic about either one. If you are in your young 20s and do not have financial pressures, I STRONGLY encourage you to get some experience. A “gap year” or three if you will. Try the peace corps or other public service. Move to a different location and get a job. Backpack travel. Join a band or pursue some other non-compensatory interest you have. Not only will doing something like that encourage personal growth and awareness, but you will get a better idea of areas you may or may not wish to pursue as a career. Grad school isn’t going anywhere. I can’t imagine it being a detriment to apply after a couple of years of experience as opposed to right out of undergrad. To the contrary, your experience would distinguish you from your fellow applicants, and give you something to write about in application essays. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/46 "2010-12-24T16:16:44Z")
I know a number of “trust fund kids” with liberal arts grad degrees. If you don’t have to make a living it at, and that is what you love, then do it - and write and teach and do whatever Musicologists do…but it doesn’t sound like you love it enough to pursue it at a PhD level. I’d be really tempted to take your current masters, your “I don’t need to make a living at this” and start your own non-profit bringing music into schools (if you like kids enough to do it). You are one of the lucky few that would get to pull something like that off. It would be writing grants and then entering schools to give seminars at appropriate levels. And skip the whole PhD/Law School - which it doesn’t sound like you are driven to do. Or find a different way to pursue and share your passion instead of assuming that the next step is more school ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/47 "2010-12-24T17:09:36Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > The point I’m making is that whatever I love now, it’s no guarantee that I’ll love it in 10 years. > … > But how does one decide whether they love the law short of practicing law? How do you try before you buy? I’ve found that a lot of people go to graduate school thinking it will answer these types of questions. “I’ll get to try the career with no risk and, hey, I might end up with a degree. What could it hurt?” The problem is grad school doesn’t answer these questions. If anything, it intensifies them because it’s so laborious and you are continually promised the light at the end of the tunnel. The catch is, the real light at the end of tunnel (i.e.- tenure, research freedom, etc.) is many, many years away. How much are you willing to sacrifice to get there? The folks that don’t obsess over these questions are the ones that have worked and not just plowed straight through school. It doesn’t even have to be a job in your desired field. Working at the wrong job can help clarify what you really want. Just get out of school-mode for a while. You can probably even defer your admissions for a year or two, so getting in again isn’t a worry. I got my PhD (granted, it’s in Molecular Microbiology) in 2003. I’ve been in academics since then. I’m still wrestling with the question of what I want to do when I “grow up”. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/48 "2010-12-24T17:23:39Z")
> [@Lsura](#): > > I thought of this thread while reading this Economist article this morning - [Doctoral Degrees: The Disposable Academic](http://www.economist.com/node/17723223?story_id=17723223). That is the best overview of the problems with doctoral education that I have ever read. **antonio107** , please read that article and consider it carefully. It is not an exaggeration. If you choose the PhD, now or in a few years, you will likely see all of those problems in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/49 "2010-12-24T18:23:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Thing is, the OP is in the enviable position of not really _needing_ the money. He doesn’t need to go into a professional-type career. It’s true. But at the same time, there is still the need on my part to do something which is fulfilling and produces meaningful work. One of my friends questions why I don’t just buy a garbage bag full of weed and stay drunk and toasted until I’m 35 and have gone through all my inheritance, THEN figure something out. Asides from the fact that I drink sparingly and don’t much care for cannabis, that’s not me. I need to engage in something. I read through that Economist article, and would offer a few responses on that: 1. Based on my current situation, if I wanted to wait four or five years for _the_ perfect tenure track position, I’d say I have that luxury. 2. The school that I’m applying to for the PhD really is top flight. I only applied to two schools for law and one for a PhD, because I wanted to go into the programs which I thought after researching them were the best, not only in terms of reputation, but in how they meshed with my interests. I have to imagine that a lot of jobless PhDs are coming from bottom rung universities. I’ve seen the names on the lanyards at many a conference. 3. [QUOTE=The Article] Many of those who embark on a PhD are the smartest in their class and will have been the best at everything they have done. They will have amassed awards and prizes. As this year’s new crop of graduate students bounce into their research, few will be willing to accept that the system they are entering could be designed for the benefit of others, that even hard work and brilliance may well not be enough to succeed, and that they would be better off doing something else. [/QUOTE] I really don’t see that. Maybe in the author’s ecology field, but certainly not in mine. I want to say this without coming off as arrogant, but I’m good at what I’ve been doing, and I think I’m brilliant, con sarn it. This is not the case with a lot of the PhDs I’ve seen and met, either at my school or at conferences. Their doctorate is the not the certificate of profound genius that the layperson may think, but simply an account of how many years they stayed in school. They stammer and talk into their chest when they speak. They make Sheldon Cooper seem like an extrovert. Their research is sloppy, logic is flawed. They use the most banal and clichéd language, even in academic conferences (if you say “Music is the Universal language” at any point to a music audience, that ought to be grounds for me to stand up and revoke your PhD; Lawyers, help me out with this one). And you look at people like this (and there are \*\*many \*\*of them) and you say, “Here is someone who will never be allowed to teach at a respectable institution, and will be forever relegated to post doctoral fellowships.” If _nothing_ else, I have a hunch that the sort of topics I’m interested in researching could be popular books outside of academia: replace Adorno and Bakhtin with some glossy photos and get a hardcover out there. But then of course, as I say to myself, “Pardon my French, but why the f\*\*\* do I need a PhD to write a book? Write it now!” ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/50 "2010-12-24T18:36:21Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > 1. Based on my current situation, if I wanted to wait four or five years for _the_ perfect tenure track position, I’d say I have that luxury. But what will you be doing in those 4 or 5 years that you are waiting? Doing nothing isn’t an option. That definitely will hurt your chances at any academic position. And time on the tenure-track isn’t exactly relaxing, so add another 7 years to those 4 or 5. > [@](#): > > 1. The school that I’m applying to for the PhD really is top flight. I only applied to two schools for law and one for a PhD, because I wanted to go into the programs which I thought after researching them were the best, not only in terms of reputation, but in how they meshed with my interests. I have to imagine that a lot of jobless PhDs are coming from bottom rung universities. I’ve seen the names on the lanyards at many a conference. That may be true, but that does not mean that all graduates from top flight schools are gainfully employed, using their degrees. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but go in with your eyes open about the reality. > [@](#): > > I really don’t see that. Maybe in the author’s ecology field, but certainly not in mine. I want to say this without coming off as arrogant, but I’m good at what I’ve been doing, and I think I’m brilliant, con sarn it. This is not the case with a lot of the PhDs I’ve seen and met, either at my school or at conferences. Their doctorate is the not the certificate of profound genius that the layperson may think, but simply an account of how many years they stayed in school. It sounds like you’ve made your choice. 🙂 I sincerely hope that it’s right for you. BTW, you just proved her statement to be true. 😉 > [@](#): > > If _nothing_ else, I have a hunch that the sort of topics I’m interested in researching could be popular books outside of academia: replace Adorno and Bakhtin with some glossy photos and get a hardcover out there. But then of course, as I say to myself, “Pardon my French, but why the f\*\*\* do I need a PhD to write a book? Write it now!” I agree. Why not write it now? Take a year, support yourself on the money you have and write. If it doesn’t take off or you realize you need more guidance, go to school. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/51 "2010-12-24T18:52:37Z")
> [@Red\_Stilettos](#): > > It sounds like you’ve made your choice. 🙂 Heh. I do seem to teeter back and forth from day to day. I’ve been all about the PhD ever since I got my offer of admission from law school. One of those “grass is greener” things. 😛 > [@](#): > > I sincerely hope that it’s right for you. BTW, you just proved her statement to be true. 😉 D’oh! Well, that part is true, I suppose, lol. > [@](#): > > I agree. Why not write it now? Take a year, support yourself on the money you have and write. If it doesn’t take off or you realize you need more guidance, go to school. I’m just about finished my thesis. I’m taking Latin for funzies, but besides that, I suppose I do have the next 8 months or so to pursue independent projects, even if I do accept an offer of admission. I enjoy the current structure I have of writing a thesis with a supervisor, and a strict syllabus that I created for myself, and having him harangue me on a weekly basis to produce faster. It’s been great. The problem when I do independent work (which I invariably do every spring break, every summer, every Christmas break) is that if I’m not presently enrolled/employed/otherwise _forced by some deadline to do it_, I never can seem to bring myself to finish it. I have a metaphorical desk drawer (i.e., a folder in “My documents”) full of novels 65,000 words in, unfinished string quartets and choral pieces, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/52 "2011-02-12T07:48:41Z")
So thanks again to everyone who responded. I really appreciate it. 🙂 I didn’t get into the PhD program I wanted to, and I decided that the backups weren’t appealing enough. I’m going to law school in the fall! If anyone would care to offer me some sagely advice on that front, I’m all ears! ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/53 "2011-02-12T09:08:55Z")
Congrats. Watch _The Paper Chase_, read _1 L_…law school is a lot like that…or was when I went. Then again, dinosaurs ruled the earth way back in 1992, so things may have changed. Other inspirational reading…_Gideon’s Trumpet_, and F. Lee Bailey’s excellent _The Defense Never Rests_. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/54 "2011-02-12T10:34:40Z")
As I recall, **antonio107** , you’re in Canada. Can I assume that you’re going to a Canadian law school; and if I’m correct, which one? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/55 "2011-02-12T11:38:10Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > The single most important prerequisite for postgraduate education is a very clear idea of why you want to get it. You don’t have that, and so you need to take a third option. I’ll second this. I don’t know if ‘a clear idea of why’ is necessary, but at the very least a burning desire or clear inner conviction that this is the path for you. The world is strewn with A.B.D.'s, and there’s a reason for that. The road to a doctorate isn’t an easy one, and it really helps to have some fundamental certainty that this is what you want when you’re having a hard time finding a decent dissertation topic, or finding after a year’s work on it that there isn’t enough there to be publishable and you’re going to have to start over with a new topic, or any of the other bumps in the road that you might encounter. It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what original research in musicology looks like, which is the point of the Ph.D., and it doesn’t interest you. That’s enough reason right there to not take that path. And since it’s hard to argue with the logic of the people discouraging you from going to law school, I agree with **ultrafilter** that you need a third option. I hear you saying that you have enough of an income to get by, even if you do nothing. And I’m assuming you’re in your 20s. Take some time off to ‘find yourself,’ as they used to say 35-40 years ago. Travel the world on the cheap. Try some new things. Have some fun. Do this for a year or two. You may get some insight to what you want during that time, and if so, it’s all to the good. And you may not, in which case you’ve still had a good time for a couple of years before returning to the same dilemma. And by then the job market won’t yet be on fire, but it should be better than it is now, and should continue to improve while you’re in school if you still feel like choosing between the same two options a year or two down the road. ETA: looks like you’ve made a choice, or it’s been made for you, one or the other. That’s what I get for not reading the entire thread. So good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/56 "2011-02-12T12:32:15Z")
Well the advice offered by most everyone in the thread, including me, was don’t go to law school just because you have nothing better to do. So short of repeating that again, I’ll just wish you good luck. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/57 "2011-02-12T12:50:09Z")
I voted for get a job (I think you have a lot of cool options here since you don’t have to struggle right away to pay off loans, etc). See how you like it, and spend some more time deciding what you really want to do with your life. You don’t seen certain enough, for me, to justify many more years of difficult and stressful schooling on either track. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/58 "2011-02-12T17:37:28Z")
The law job market is terrible right now. Don’t go to law school unless you have a full-ride scholarship. Seriously, do some googling around–there have been a ton of big articles written lately about how hard it is to find a law job right now that allows you to make both your student loan payments AND your rent. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/59 "2011-02-12T17:58:30Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > The law job market is terrible right now. Don’t go to law school unless you have a full-ride scholarship. Seriously, do some googling around–there have been a ton of big articles written lately about how hard it is to find a law job right now that allows you to make both your student loan payments AND your rent. I’ve been painfully aware of those, but I should mention that I’m from Canada. We have 15 law schools for a population of 30 million. That’s a much different ration than in the U.S. I’m not worried about my financial prospects. More to the point, if I don’t go at this point (wanted to for a good decade or so, got accepted), and least take a year and drop out, there will always be the nagging sound of “what if” in the back of my mind, of how things would have been had I gone. I guess I didn’t make this abundantly clear in my OP; I have a knack for shitting on my own life decisions, even if they _have_ served me well! ---
**Author:** ![Amazingrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Amazingrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazingrace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152/60 "2011-02-13T03:41:00Z")
I was ready to tell you to rethink law school until I saw you were from Canada. I went to a T-10 school and graduated in 2010 with many folks who struggled to find any job (let alone the $160K a year jobs into which they thought they would walk). But, as you noted, things are different in Canada. I just read this article on [Above the Law](http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/wait-canada-has-a-better-system-for-prescription-medication-and-legal-education/) that explains how things are not as dire. I just can’t get as worked up in trying to convince you not to go. It still doesn’t sound like you’re too pumped. But I wish you the best of luck. I think there’s no way to substantively prep for law school, so don’t go reading study materials–they will make no sense to you and it will be a waste of time. You can, however, get in the right mindset. I’d read _Law School Confidential_, which gives a bit of “what you can expect” overview. Also relax now and bust your butt when you get there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/law-school-or-a-phd/565152.md?page=4)