# Lawmen go berserk...again. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313 "2003-08-28T23:40:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/1 "2003-08-28T23:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Parents’ plea for help for their 15-year-old son, who was holding a kitchen knife and threatening suicide, turned deadly early Monday when Mesa police shot him in front of his family. > > Westwood High School junior Mario Albert Madrigal Jr. was shot multiple times in the carport of his home near Dobson and Longmore roads in west Mesa after police said he came toward them with a knife “in a threatening manner.” [http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0826shooting26.html](http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0826shooting26.html) What is a threatening manner? It’s either a threat or it’s not. All three officers fired their weapons. I do realize there are two sides to the story. But good lord…three men pumping bullets into a teen ager?? Will this kind of stuff never end? ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/2 "2003-08-28T23:53:24Z")
We don’t know the situation **Reeder** , so unless you’re totally cool with some stranger coming after you with a knife I suggest you cut them a little slack. There are two conflicting stories in that article about what happened: one states they tasered him twice and he still kept coming at them (justifiable shooting, I’m thinking) and the other that he was lying on the ground unarmed when they shot him (unjustifiable, if true). I’m sure it’ll be investigated and they’ll figure out who did what. At any rate, shrieking about how this proves that The Law is out of control seems a bit premature. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/3 "2003-08-29T00:00:06Z")
> [@](#): > > What is a threatening manner? I dunno… maybe it has something to do with him approaching the cops with a knife? Christ, Reeder, why do you even bother to post if you’re going to answer your own idiot questions? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/4 "2003-08-29T00:01:51Z")
Tough to glean what happened from that article, but the whole thing sounds fucked up. Shouldn’t they have popped him with a beanbag or something? These things are always a tough call, as it is entirely possible that in the course of a split second the 3 officers _individually_ reacted in self defense, _or_ they coincidentally made a horrific mistake all at once. The only thing we do know is the mob of Monday morning quarterbacks has been dispatched. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/5 "2003-08-29T00:01:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > Will this kind of stuff never end? I was wondering that myself. But probably not in the same way you were. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/6 "2003-08-29T00:03:05Z")
> [@](#): > > one states they tasered him twice and he still kept coming at them (justifiable shooting, I’m thinking) Being tasered twice and not going down? I’ve never heard of anyone not going down after a single tasing. Then again, I don’t do all that much taser research. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/7 "2003-08-29T00:03:30Z")
I’m waiting for him to blame Bush btw. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/8 "2003-08-29T01:01:59Z")
Well, the guy had six or seven beers. Maybe the fact he didn’t go down was why the cops thought the taser wasn’t working. Which is rank speculation on my part, of course, so ignore it. I agree that the article seems to tell at least two stories. Even the father first says the kid dropped the knife and then later says the knife was “pointing toward the floor.” So I don’t think we know what happened and we sure as heck can’t know the cops were wrong to do as they did. And just FYI: If the cops believe an armed person presents an immediate threat to any one of them, they will _all_ discharge their weapons – or all of them with a clear shot, at least. They do not assume that just one of them will for sure stop the guy before he can do harm; if they all perceive an immediate threat, they all will likely fire. To be really blunt about it, the only reason the kid wasn’t shot by nine cops is because there weren’t nine cops there. I’m sorry for his family; regardless of blame it is a tragedy arising from a tense situation gone horribly awry. But I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as “lawmen going berserk.” ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/9 "2003-08-29T02:27:21Z")
Lemme get this straight. The parents who called the police to take the 15 year old to detox two months ago, where he went, called the police to take him to detox again because he is brandishing a knife and threatens to kill himself, though he “doesn’t have a serious drinking problem but they want to take care of it before it gets worse”. The damn cops show up and hit the upstanding lad who is causing no real trouble, but just needs help with his nonexistant serious alcohol problem, with tasers. While the model young citizen is laying on the ground “fully in control while under the effects of electric current”, with the “knife pointed at the ground”, minding his own business, those police bastards just walk up to him and fill him with lead. “They killed shithead!!! You bastards!!!” I wonder who they are going to try to sue after they fail with the police. The maker of Tasers for not completely incapaciting this well adjusted kid? The knife maker for not having a safety feature on the knife block? The government for not mandating “responsible drinking for kids” classes in the schools? The fault couldn’t possibly lie with the parents of this beacon of the future, who only wanted to serve his country and live a good, respectable and responsible life. Fucking cops. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/10 "2003-08-29T02:36:20Z")
Couldn’t they have taken out their night clubs and hit him a few times? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/11 "2003-08-29T03:05:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Couldn’t they have taken out their night clubs and hit him a few times? \*\* Why waste energy to hit or try to take him down when you have three fingers on triggers? Much easier just to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/12 "2003-08-29T03:19:40Z")
The fact that all three policemen fired their weapons actually indicates that the perceived threat was real. One scared cop can make a mistake, and misinterpret someone’s actions as a threat when they’re not, but it would be pretty strange for all three to make the same mistake. If someone’s coming at you with a knife, trying to take him out with a baton isn’t very smart. Chances are, you’re going to get seriously cut up. It’s a tragedy, of course, that a young man’s life was cut short like this, but chalking it up to trigger-happy, shoot-first-ask-questions-later cops is just another example of a **Reeder** strawman post. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/13 "2003-08-29T03:19:54Z")
Sounds like “suicide by cop” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/14 "2003-08-29T04:10:43Z")
I think **Mr2001** nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/15 "2003-08-29T04:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Why waste energy to hit or try to take him down when you have three fingers on triggers? > > Much easier just to shoot. Reeder, you are a fucking moron. Three cops, and all three shoot at the same time, and you think there wasn’t an imminent threat? You do this shit on purpose, don’t you… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/16 "2003-08-29T04:27:46Z")
Let’s see: Guy attacks cop #1 of 3. Cop #1 of three fires to protect himself. Cops #2 & #3 of 3 fire to prevent injury to Cop #1. I don’t see a problem here, Reeder. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/17 "2003-08-29T04:31:27Z")
Interesting. About 2 months ago in San Jose, some police were dispatched to a house on a “welfare check”(essentially called out to make sure a woman and her children are all ok). THe 2 police found the mother with a vietnamese vegetable peeler-which is a large, dull knife, apparently-in her kitchen. She yelled at them and one of them decided he’d plug her. Witnesses say she didn’t advance on them(or him depending on whose account you believe, 1 OR 2 cops at the scene in the house), but the officer still nailed her. FBI is investigating, Lawmen done fucked this one up, too. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/18 "2003-08-29T04:33:01Z")
As for the vegetable peeler incedent - I’ve seen those knives. It should’ve been pretty obvious that it wasn’t a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/19 "2003-08-29T05:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the vegetable peeler incedent - I’ve seen those knives. It should’ve been pretty obvious that it wasn’t a weapon. No klaatu, it’s obvious the dull piece of steel was a lethal object, at least as lethal to an officer with a vest on from at least a room away as the gun was to the woman! At least that’s what SJPD says… Sam ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313/20 "2003-08-29T05:32:50Z")
GaWd: The vest doesn’t cover his fingers, does it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawmen-go-berserk-again/198313.md?page=2)