# Lawrence Russell Brewer Dead
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 22, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158 "2011-09-22T04:33:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/181 "2011-09-23T18:42:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> Because Phelps has not murdered anyone. Phelps is an asshole and SOB but he is not a murderous monster like this fellow. God demands justice.
God is just a story. It’s you demanding this “justice”, don’t try to hide behind your imaginary friends.
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/182 "2011-09-23T18:46:57Z")
I already knew it and in this case the killer _may_ wind up doing more than 21 years, who knows? But the point remains that 21 years is the maximum sentence in Norway and undoubtedly many murders committed there do not result in lifetime insanity incarcerations. Presumably you can still rape women, torture and kill people in Norway and the most you’ll get is 21 years.
Like I said, libbies just can’t kick 'em loose soon enough and I’m not about to assume that life without parole today means life without parole 10 or 20 or 30 years from now.
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### Author:  [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/183 "2011-09-23T18:54:43Z")
Are you going to keep me waiting for that cite until I’m as senile as you are?
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### Author:  [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/184 "2011-09-23T19:11:28Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#):
>
> God is, presumably, capable of taking care of his own justice. To declare that somehow the guy needs a helping hand from us seems to suggest either an utter lack of faith or the height of arrogance.
>
> When you have a perfect justice system avaliable, to say “Eh, I can’t be bothered to wait. Let’s just get it over with now, with our necessarily flawed system!” is, i’d argue, an inherently evil idea.
This is a common argument I see used against the death penalty, but I feel like it’s conflating two issues here, namely that, for lack of better terms, that Earthly Justice and Divine Justice are the same thing. Worse, to make such an argument necessitates the existence of God.
At least within my understanding of typical Christian belief, it is clear that Divine Justice pretty much makes EVERYONE worthy of punishment and it is only by the grace of God that some number of people avoid that punishment. That is what establishes a balance between that individual and God. In Earthly Justice, it is in accordance with establishing balance between that individual, the victims of the crime, and society as a whole. These balances are different because, inherently, the relationship between an individual and society is different from the relationship between an individual and God. So, it’s not a matter of “Let’s get it over with!”
Or to give a different example that doesn’t require invoking God, let’s imagine a child that is caught cheating in school. The school may determine that the kid deserves a zero or deserves detention or maybe just deserves a warning, but in theory the punishment will depend upon how it affected that child in his relationship with the school. Similarly, upon his parents finding out, he might get spanked, he might lose his allowance, he might get grounded, or any number of other things and this too is in relation to the Parent-Child relationship and all the complexities that go along with that. So, even though it is exactly the same offense, the child has disrupted the balance in two different systems and created the need for justice in each system and whatever punishment in brings.
If the school fails to punish the child believing that the parents will do so, even if the parents do, it will leave an injustice within the School-Child relationship. And it would be similar for the Parent-Child relationship if they fail to do so for the school having addressed their end. That’s not to say that the punishments cannot each take into consideration the other to avoid it being too severe, or not severe enough, but each still involves an injustice that should be corrected.
And so, even though one may believe in God and Divine Justice, it doesn’t remove our obligation to correct injustices against society or ourselves.
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### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/185 "2011-09-23T19:29:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#):
>
> I already knew it and in this case the killer _may_ wind up doing more than 21 years, who knows? But the point remains that 21 years is the maximum sentence in Norway and undoubtedly many murders committed there do not result in lifetime insanity incarcerations. Presumably you can still rape women, torture and kill people in Norway and the most you’ll get is 21 years.
By your logic we should expect Norway to have a terrible re-offending rate yes?
I haven’t checked and I don’t know but I am aware they have some liberal ideas on incarceration.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/186 "2011-09-23T19:35:04Z")
> [@DianaG](#):
>
> Are you going to keep me waiting for that cite until I’m as senile as you are?
Too late.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/187 "2011-09-23T19:39:12Z")
My point is that God has commanded people to put criminals to death-even Paul said that had he committed crimes worthy of death he would be willing to die.
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### Author:  [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/188 "2011-09-23T19:40:53Z")
And everyone else’s is that God didn’t say _anything_, dear.
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/189 "2011-09-23T19:43:12Z")
> [@Novelty Bobble](#):
>
> By your logic we should expect Norway to have a terrible re-offending rate yes?
>
> I haven’t checked and I don’t know but I am aware they have some liberal ideas on incarceration.
That has come up before and IIRC Norway’s recidivism rate wasn’t all that exemplary. Still, I don’t care if a murderer becomes a model citizen after he does his 10 or 15 or 21 years. He took someone’s life and he therefore doesn’t deserve to be drawing breath. You might be cool with somebody walking free and happy a few years after killing your parent, sibling, child or S.O., but I’m not. You murder somebody, you deserve to die. End of story.
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Too late.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
😃
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### Author:  [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/190 "2011-09-23T19:44:04Z")
So still no cite then?
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/191 "2011-09-23T19:48:45Z")
> [@DianaG](#):
>
> Are you going to keep me waiting for that cite…
Tell ya what, I think I’ve come up with a pretty good way to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to bogus vs. genuine cite requests, since as you know I generally don’t bother with bogus ones. So how’s about this little challenge? How’s about I agree to give you ten dollars for every innocent person you can list who’s been executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, and you agree to pay me ten dollars for every innocent citizen or prisoner I can list who has been killed since that time by a convicted murderer? If you’ll agree to that then I’ll know that your question is genuine and that you are probably the only person in this country who doesn’t know better, and if you refuse then we’ll all know that you really do know better and are dishonestly and cowardly trying to use cite demands to derail points you have no argument for otherwise.
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### Author:  [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/192 "2011-09-23T19:53:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> My point is that God has commanded people to put criminals to death-even Paul said that had he committed crimes worthy of death he would be willing to die.
If I’m not mistaken, there’s also a bit in there about kids who strike or curse at their parents being surely put to death. You ready to bare your neck for the holy headsman’s axe?
Sorry, kid. Rules are rules. Outta my hands.
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### Author:  [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/193 "2011-09-23T20:05:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#):
>
> Tell ya what, I think I’ve come up with a pretty good way to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to bogus vs. genuine cite requests, since as you know I generally don’t bother with bogus ones. So how’s about this little challenge? How’s about I agree to give you ten dollars for every innocent person you can list who’s been executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, and you agree to pay me ten dollars for every innocent citizen or prisoner I can list who has been killed since that time by a convicted murderer? If you’ll agree to that then I’ll know that your question is genuine and that you are probably the only person in this country who doesn’t know better, and if you refuse then we’ll all know that you really do know better and are dishonestly and cowardly trying to use cite demands to derail points you have no argument for otherwise.
Or, alternatively, you could just give me your list. Cited. And if you don’t, I suppose we’ll know who’s cowardly and dishonest.\*
Just out of curiosity, how do you define a request for a cite as “bogus”?\*\*
\*Fortunately we already know, since we could all die of old age waiting for you to produce a cite.
\*\*Any time you’ve pulled the information you’ve been asked to cite out of your withered ass. So, always.
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### Author:  [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/194 "2011-09-23T20:09:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#):
>
> You might be cool with somebody walking free and happy a few years after killing your parent, sibling, child or S.O., but I’m not. You murder somebody, you deserve to die. End of story.
No, I’d probably not be “cool” with anything regarding the killing of my parent, sibling, child or S.O. However, since I’m morally superior to the killer, I realize that nobody “deserves to die” by society’s hand. Thus society, being morally superior to the killer _does not take a person’s life_. Even if I personally would want to do that, blinded by rage and sorrow.
And let me state that using 😁 smilies in a debate about other people’s death is, to put it diplomatically, distasteful. But I really didn’t expect better from you.
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### Author:  [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/195 "2011-09-23T20:18:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> OTOH, this “get tough on crime” policy began in the 70s and crime has gone down a lot since then.
Oh, really? Interesting, I did a quick two second Google and found [this graph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg) on the [U.S. Crime wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States) that would seem to indicate the opposite. See how in the 60’s there were 200-300 violent crimes per capita, which steadily rose until hitting a peak in the early 90’s, at which point there were almost 850? That seems to be the exact opposite trend that you were claiming, doesn’t it?
It’s weird, because I can’t imagine you just throwing out a statement like that without some factual data behind it. I mean, who would do that?
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> My point is that God has commanded people to put criminals to death-even Paul said that had he committed crimes worthy of death he would be willing to die.
It’s been a while since I’ve broken out the old Bible, but I do seem to remember that God was all about the commanding. Always tossing off this or that commandment. At one point, it got so bad that he summarized the main ones into a big list. Do you remember if the different types of criminals one should kill made that list? That would be a real time saver.
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### Author:  [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/196 "2011-09-23T20:43:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#):
>
> I already knew it and in this case the killer _may_ wind up doing more than 21 years, who knows? But the point remains that 21 years is the maximum sentence in Norway and undoubtedly many murders committed there do not result in lifetime insanity incarcerations. Presumably you can still rape women, torture and kill people in Norway and the most you’ll get is 21 years.
So that fucking terrorist can only get 21 years. Or can the sentences run consecutively?
If all he can get is 21 years, I hope someone kills him in prison.
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/197 "2011-09-23T20:57:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> No. Have you?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Yeah, reading your posts. Must admit, got away lightly. I was ordered to use mental Lysol twice a day.
Disregard Shodan.
~Red
-Busting balls here, in case it wasn’t clear. I obviously dislike your politics, but the way the SDMB is going, have to say, you’re actually an ASSet here. So cheers!
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/198 "2011-09-23T20:57:41Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#):
>
> So that fucking terrorist can only get 21 years. Or can the sentences run consecutively?
>
> If all he can get is 21 years, I hope someone kills him in prison.
Yep, that’s it. 21 years is Norway’s maximum prison sentence. In this case he might, repeat might, get kept longer for being insane. But as far as criminal actions go, whether rape, torture, murder, whatever, 21 years is the max.
And like I said somewhere upthread, Norwegian officials are actually worried that the publicity surrounding the shooting is going to result in stiffer prison sentences
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/199 "2011-09-23T21:58:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> No. Have you?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Yes. I have. In one instance, my commanding officer, the individual who could have ordered the case proceed to court-martial, knew it was false because at the time of the alleged crime, I was on a military detail with him quite some distance away from said crime.
On another instance, my commanding officer refused to proceed because he simply did not find the allegations credible. A few years after that, one of the people who made the false accusation, quite by chance, encountered me in the stands at a baseball game. He came up and apologized. He also informed me of what happened to the individual who instigated the false accusations.
It’s quite easy to levy a false accusation against someone. And the false charge alone, today, can very well destroy a person’s career and reputation. Those making the false charges may be mentally ill, they may have a warped sense of humor, or they may have other motivations. It simply is not fun to be a target of an overzealous judicial system functionary with an agenda to “crack down” on crime. I can easily imagine how much worse it would be for someone false accused and convicted of a capital offense.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawrence-russell-brewer-dead/597158/200 "2011-09-23T23:59:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Would you be willing to be tortured and repeatedly raped by Willie Horton, or murdered by a prison escapee? Because we know for a fact that things like that do happen when people are sentenced to life in prison instead of executed.
Of course not. But we risk this from non prison-escapees every damned day.
> [@](#):
>
> Hell, are you willing to spend the rest of your life in prison for a crime you didn’t commit?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Better that and have the chance of being released someday, than be executed. What do YOU choose, **Shodan**?
BTW, plenty of people have offered examples of innocent people being executed or people being released upon further evidence. Other than Horton, let’s see some examples of people escaping prison.
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