# Laws that exempt Politicians! = ??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912 "2004-09-30T20:09:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/81 "2004-10-05T05:04:05Z")
What? You quoted my very cite two posts above! Well, [here it is again](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269.pdf), raw numbers and all. Once again, there was no “ban”, so there are no “pre-ban” or “post-ban statistics”. It was an increase in restrictions over a couple of years, only affecting 25% of Australian guns. And I quoted raw numbers from the cite in my last post, like so: > [@Myself](#): > > Don’t believe me? Take a look at [this paper](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269.pdf) underlying the quick graphs. Raw numbers, no confusing percentages. You’ll see that there were 76 gun murders in 1994, 67 in 1995, 104 in 1996 and 79 in 1997. Then the gun restrictions come in, and over 1998 to 2001 the numbers read 57, 50, 57, 47. Just raw numbers, just murders. My source is table 1, on page 2. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/82 "2004-10-05T07:42:57Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > What? You quoted my very cite two posts above! Well, [here it is again](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269.pdf), raw numbers and all. Once again, there was no “ban”, so there are no “pre-ban” or “post-ban statistics”. It was an increase in restrictions over a couple of years, only affecting 25% of Australian guns. > > And I quoted raw numbers from the cite in my last post, like so: > > My source is table 1, on page 2. But you don’t have any statistics for total homocides per year from say, 1994 to present? Were there reductions in total numbers of homocides? Or did the homocide numbers remain constant (within 10%) while the numbers for the weapons of choice changed? Did they _increase?_ I’m sorry. I’m trying to be nice, really! But it seems like you are avoiding the issue! Are these statistics available? Did the repressive monarchy-type government “make them disappear?” Are _you_ hiding them because of what you’re afraid they’d reveal? We want to know the truth, whatever it is. This message board is about conquering ignorance. Give us a hand. SnakeSssssss ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/83 "2004-10-05T07:48:38Z")
We need TOTAL HOMOCIDES for these years. NOT just “Gun Deaths.” TOTAL NUMBERS OF HOMOCIDES _compared to_ total nuimber of gun deaths. How else can we be expected to determine if gun bans (or restrictions) had anything to do with numbers of deaths??? Did the former gun users decide not to kill??? Or did they just find ‘other means’ to kill??? Can it get any simpler? ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/84 "2004-10-05T11:06:03Z")
From the Australian Institute of Criminology: > [@](#): > > The number of murders fluctuated slightly on an annual basis between 1993 and 2002, while manslaughter remained relatively stable. The number of murders peaked in 1999 with 343 recorded. [http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2003/fig014.html](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2003/fig014.html) The numbers are inconsistent from year-to year, but have more or less hover around 300/year. I can see no real trend in that graph. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/85 "2004-10-05T12:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cerowyn** said: > That would seem to indicate that armed bodyguards are well with in the intent and letter of the law. What it says to me is that if you don’t have scads of money so that you can afford to pay someone to protect your life, you’re not worthy of efficient and effective self defense. > [@](#): > > **danceswithcats** said: > I want to carry the firearm whenever I go to the corner store for a gallon of milk, then I need a CCP issued by the County Sheriff. Only if you want to carry that firearm concealed. Open carry raises a lot of eyebrows and will probably cause commotion, but it’s not, strictly speaking, illegal in most of Pennsylvania. Otherwise, you do need to have your Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms, or one from another state whose licenses are valid in Pennsylvania. > [@](#): > > That said, unless the District has a wholesale ban on ownership, then a domestic robber runs equal likelihood of getting capped in DC as he does anywhere else. According to what was posted, you can’t own one unless it’s registered, and you can’t register one unless it was already registered prior to Sept. 24, 1976. > [@](#): > > **InvisibleWombat** said: > Returning to the OP here for a moment, I don’t begrudge people the right to have an armed guard, assuming said guard is appropriately trained and licensed, and that said guards are available to whomever needs one. I have a big problem with it, because to me it says that if you’re not rich, your life’s not worth it. > [@](#): > > **SteveG1** said: > Actually, I did prevent a crime once, with my guns. I kept a girl in Fort Worth from being run down by her “boyfriend’s” truck. He saw the guns, turned the truck around, the cops caught him later. Anyone who doubts that guns get used to stop crimes should take a look at the links on the right hand side of [this page](http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/default.asp). Keep in mind that although it is a pro-gun site, those links are to actual news websites not part of Keep and Bear’s domain. Also keep in mind that these are stories that actually made the news, whereas many times if shots are not fired there is no story and sometimes not even any police involvement at all. > [@](#): > > **Atticus Finch** said: > > - Since the stricter laws were introduced, there has been large drops in homicides by gun (see these official statistics) and in all firearm-related deaths (see these statistics, same source) Unfortunatley for you, the violent death rate in Australia is still very similar to what it is in the United States. What good did banning firearms accomplish, exactly? > [@](#): > > I really believe my second cite is more useful here. You can see that deaths by gun, including accidents and murders, have nearly halved since the stricter laws came into action. And the violent deaths overall have done what? The latest statistics that I can find say they’ve not gone down. I’ve also seen stats that say home invasions and other types of opportunistic crime in Australia have increased. > [@](#): > > There are fewer homicides with guns. This does not mean there are fewer homicides. > [@](#): > > **wolfstu** said: > The numbers are inconsistent from year-to year, but have more or less hover around 300/year. I can see no real trend in that graph. So banning firearms has done nothing to the overall number of homicides? Why am I not surprised? ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/86 "2004-10-05T18:30:52Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > So banning firearms has done nothing to the overall number of homicides? Why am I not surprised? **cat,** it’s always good to see you at these discussions, what with your incontrovertable logic and substantial conclusions. You are an asset for freedom and rationality. SnakeS ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/87 "2004-10-06T02:29:06Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > We need TOTAL HOMOCIDES for these years… > > TOTAL NUMBERS OF HOMOCIDES compared to total nuimber of gun deaths. First, it’s homicides. Also, it’s your point, it is your job to find the cite. Since I felt like a good Google today, I’ve done this one for you. You’ll find as many details about gun deaths as you need in my earlier posts. As for the number of homicides, there _has_ been a drop in murders in recent years. [The most recent official data available](http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/76c8926bd8a12e1fca2568a9001393f2?OpenDocument), for 2002 to 2003, shows a 4.7% drop in murders, a 12% drop in attempted murders, and an 18.8% drop in manslaughters. Similar drops appear in assaults, robberies and unlawful entries. (For some reason, sexual assaults are increasing. See Table 2 for full details.) Maybe you don’t see this as a trend just yet. Fair enough - it’s only been a couple of years since the restrictions came in. However, these drops in murders and other violent crimes are good news for Australia, so I’ll be celebrating! > [@](#): > > Are these statistics available? Did the repressive monarchy-type government “make them disappear?” Are you hiding them because of what you’re afraid they’d reveal? “Repressive monarchy-type government”? You know very little about Australia. These statistics are freely available via the [Australian Bureau of Statistics](http://www.abs.gov.au/), who created the report I linked to above. Feel free to poke around there, or around Google. I’m not hiding anything from you. > [@catsix](#): > > Unfortunatley for you, the violent death rate in Australia is still very similar to what it is in the United States … And the violent deaths overall have done what? The latest statistics that I can find say they’ve not gone down. I’ve also seen stats that say home invasions and other types of opportunistic crime in Australia have increased. Cites for these claims please. “I’ve seen stats” isn’t really convincing. Second, the statistics prove you wrong. We have less violent crime than the United States, fewer assaults per capita and far fewer murders per capita. According to [this site](http://www.nationmaster.com/) (no idea about its reliability), our murder rate is a quarter of yours (0.04 per 1000 for US, 0.01 per 1000 for Aus, [cite](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap)). Our assault rate is less than yours (7.70 for US vs 7.17 for Aus, [cite](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_ass_cap).) There appear to be more rapes per capita in Australia, though. Third, one can cite these things all day. You could find a statistic that says rapes of young women are increasing in recent years, and suggest that if they had access to now-banned pump-action shotguns, they’d be safer. But the real statistics - the number of deaths by guns, the number of murders by guns, the number of suicides by guns - show a dramatic drop in the last few years. Look folks, I didn’t aim to get drawn into a long debate. I have no particular opinion on private security guards carrying guns. I just wanted to respond to **Snake’s** original quote: > [@](#): > > Even in “firearm free” places like England, Australia, etc., criminals still seem to be able to get firearms As I’ve argued, we’re not firearm free and criminals seem to be having trouble getting guns if the falling murder rates with guns are a good indication. The fact that overall deaths with guns and overall homicides have gone down in recent years is somewhat off the track of this original response, but I hope it’s helpful to you. I think I’ve made my point as best I can. If there’s further stuff you’d like to debate, just email me when you open the new GD thread. I’ll be there with bells on. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/88 "2004-10-06T03:23:43Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > First, it’s homicides. Also, it’s your point, it is your job to find the cite. Well, if I can’t spell right, I guess that invalidates my opinion. I can’t shoot straight, either. I wouldn’t have to find the cite if you didn’t post misleading statistics in the first place. > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Since I felt like a good Google today, I’ve done this one for you. You’ll find as many details about gun deaths as you need in my earlier posts. As for the number of homicides, there _has_ been a drop in murders in recent years. [The most recent official data available](http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/76c8926bd8a12e1fca2568a9001393f2?OpenDocument), for 2002 to 2003, shows a 4.7% drop in murders, a 12% drop in attempted murders, and an 18.8% drop in manslaughters. Similar drops appear in assaults, robberies and unlawful entries. (For some reason, sexual assaults are increasing. See Table 2 for full details.) \*\*Maybe you don’t see this as a trend just yet. \*\* Fair enough - it’s only been a couple of years since the restrictions came in. However, these drops in murders and other violent crimes are good news for Australia, so I’ll be celebrating! Have fun, but one year does not make a “trend.” > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > “Repressive monarchy-type government”? You know very little about Australia. These statistics are freely available via the [Australian Bureau of Statistics](http://www.abs.gov.au/), who created the report I linked to above. Feel free to poke around there, or around Google. I’m not hiding anything from you. Maybe a smiley would help you recognize sarcasm? > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Cites for these claims please. “I’ve seen stats” isn’t really convincing. > > Second, the statistics prove you wrong. We have less violent crime than the United States, fewer assaults per capita and far fewer murders per capita. According to [this site](http://www.nationmaster.com/) (no idea about its reliability), our murder rate is a quarter of yours (0.04 per 1000 for US, 0.01 per 1000 > for Aus, [cite](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap)). Our assault rate is less than yours (7.70 for US vs 7.17 for Aus, [cite](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_ass_cap).) There appear to be more rapes per capita in Australia, though. What are you talking about? I never made any Aussie/US comparisons! > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Look folks, I didn’t aim to get drawn into a long debate. I have no particular opinion on private security guards carrying guns. I just wanted to respond to **Snake’s** original quote: > > As I’ve argued, we’re not firearm free and criminals seem to be having trouble getting guns if the falling murder rates with guns are a good indication. The fact that overall deaths with guns and overall homicides have gone down in recent years is somewhat off the track of this original response, but I hope it’s helpful to you. Well, noplace is “firearm free.” Which is why I used quotes - it indicates that major firearm reduction has taken place. > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > I think I’ve made my point as best I can. If there’s further stuff you’d like to debate, just email me when you open the new GD thread. I’ll be there with bells on. Well, why didn’t you just say so in the first place? All you have proven, according to your statistics, however, is that suicides have been reduced corresponding to gun restrictions. The number of murders committed with firearms has not made a statistically significant change. OK, I give it to you. Australia has seen a reduction in firearm deaths over the past several years. There has been a reduction in firearm deaths in the US, too, but like you said, this thread is not the appropriate forum; and it’s already been handled in the other threads on guns here. There’s been dozens of GD threads concerning gun control. If you want to start one, I’ll likely see you there. I’ve started a few, participated in most, and I’m not likely to change. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/89 "2004-10-06T03:41:04Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > I wouldn’t have to find the cite if you didn’t post misleading statistics in the first place. I never planned to mislead anyone, sorry if you found it difficult to understand. All statistics are from official agencies and are clearly labelled. > [@](#): > > What are you talking about? I never made any Aussie/US comparisons! No, they were from **catsix** , as my post clearly indicates, Catch you in some later thread. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912/90 "2004-10-06T05:41:18Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > I never planned to mislead anyone, sorry if you found it difficult to understand. All statistics are from official agencies and are clearly labelled. Yeah, and I was probably ranting in excess of what was necessary. Hey, it’s the pit. No big deal, no hard feelings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/laws-that-exempt-politicians/266912.md?page=4)