# Lawyer sues to block Obama from presidency as a non-native citizen (2) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 29, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641 "2008-08-29T02:46:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/21 "2008-08-29T13:34:07Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I wonder how the RICO case against Bush is working out. [/QUOTE] Undetermined, but the damage is already done: he can forget about being re-elected. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/22 "2008-08-29T13:47:48Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] We _have_ unlimited editing power.[\QUOTE] Unlimited editing power corrupts editing … er, unlimitedly. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/23 "2008-09-03T04:12:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We _have_ unlimited editing power. Not to speak for **fluiddruid** , but we prefer not to use it unless we have to, which is why we have rules against using the board to start campaigns and against posting complete copyrighted song lyrics, for example, instead of just removing them all ourselves. The mods have the same mandate as the [Istari](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(Middle-earth)#Purpose) ! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/24 "2008-09-04T07:27:06Z")
Strictly speaking, the document affirming Obama’s live birth is not a copy of his birth certificate. An actual birth certificate contains a lot more information than what was presented. So to say it is a forged birth certificate is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/25 "2008-09-04T07:41:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Irepresentative of the bottom of the bell curve. Bell curves have **two** bottoms. One is the genius end, the other is the moron end. So you need to be more specific. But actually, looking at that website, it’s clearly **not** the genius end shown there! ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/26 "2008-09-04T14:45:42Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Strictly speaking, the document affirming Obama’s live birth is not a copy of his birth certificate. An actual birth certificate contains a lot more information than what was presented. So to say it is a forged birth certificate is absurd. My actual birth certificate, the original one that was issued to me, doesn’t contain much information at all. Other than my name, date of birth, and sex, there’s nothing on it beyond a signature. So, how can you be sure that birth certificates always contain more information than that? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/27 "2008-09-04T15:35:37Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Strictly speaking, the document affirming Obama’s live birth is not a copy of his birth certificate. An actual birth certificate contains a lot more information than what was presented. So to say it is a forged birth certificate is absurd. My kids’ Birth Certificates look about the same as what’s on Obama’s website. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/28 "2008-09-06T00:18:22Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Strictly speaking, the document affirming Obama’s live birth is not a copy of his birth certificate. An actual birth certificate contains a lot more information than what was presented. So to say it is a forged birth certificate is absurd. YMMV, of course, since each state & province sets its own rules, but the system I’m familiar with has two forms: the “registration of live birth” that the parents file with Vital Stats, and the “birth certificate”, which is then issued by Vital Stats. The registration of live birth has more information on it than is set out in the birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/29 "2008-09-06T02:50:55Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > So, how can you be sure that birth certificates always contain more information than that? Well, they used to show your race. It’s good that I’m not on a judge because if I had to rule on either of the claims that a McCain or Obama weren’t really natural citizens my comments would begin, “Oh, ferchrissake!” And the plaintiff might end up in irons. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/30 "2008-09-06T16:13:22Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Well, they used to show your race. > > It’s good that I’m not on a judge because if I had to rule on either of the claims that a McCain or Obama weren’t really natural citizens my comments would begin, “Oh, ferchrissake!” And the plaintiff might end up in irons. Mine does not. My sister’s, issued two years after mine, does. Hers also lists parents and a couple of other things that mine doesn’t. I think the information contained really depended on who was typing them up at Vital Statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/31 "2008-09-06T16:46:59Z")
Having nothing better to do, I read the full text. Sounds to me like he has a valid complaint. The issue will be 1) whether this is even allowed to go to court and 2) if it does, can he prove his allegations? Boy, won’t this open a major can of worms if it proves to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/32 "2008-09-06T17:03:44Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Having nothing better to do, I read the full text. > > Sounds to me like he has a valid complaint. The issue will be 1) whether this is even allowed to go to court and 2) if it does, can he prove his allegations? > > Boy, won’t this open a major can of worms if it proves to be true? WTF do you think is valid about the complaint? Obama was born in Hawaii. The end. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/33 "2008-09-06T17:48:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > WTF do you think is valid about the complaint? Well, for one, I don’t think it’s referring to the same Obama that we are. Perhaps, some kind of Obama robot, or creature, or something. > [@](#): > > From the **text of the complaint** : > _However, the Obama must meet the Qualifications specified for the United States Office of the President…_ ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/34 "2008-09-06T18:04:32Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The issue will be 1) whether this is even allowed to go to court and 2) if it does, can he prove his allegations? Seriously, this thing doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Unless Berg can show some kind of evidence that Obama’s mother explicitly renounced her U.S. citizenship. According to the [U.S. Dept. of State](http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily **and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship**. Briefly stated, these acts include: > > 1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA); > … Furthermore (bolding mine, again): > [@](#): > > In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who: > > 1. is naturalized in a foreign country; > 2. takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state; > 3. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or > 4. accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government, > > and in so doing **wishes to retain U.S. citizenship** need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since **such an intent will be presumed**. IANAL, and this is still pretty straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/35 "2008-09-06T18:37:30Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Seriously, this thing doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Unless Berg can show some kind of evidence that Obama’s mother explicitly renounced her U.S. citizenship. I haven’t seen any evidence that his mother accepted Indonesian citizenship. Did she? I’ve always understood the argument to be that the mere act of marrying an Indonesian citizen and moving to Indonesia caused loss of U.S. citizenship. She “expatriated her citizenship,” whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean. I’ll address Kenya briefly: Obama could have had Kenyan citizenship. Here’s what the [Kenyan constitution](http://kenya.rcbowen.com/constitution/chap6.html) has to say: > [@](#): > > 1. Dual citizenship > A person who, upon the attainment of the age of twenty-one years, is a citizen of Kenya and also a citizen of some country other than Kenya shall, subject to subsection (7), cease to be a citizen of Kenya upon the specified date unless he has renounced his citizenship of that other country, taken the oath of allegiance and, in the case of a person who was born outside Kenya. made and registered such declaration of his intentions concerning residence as may be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament. **Clothahump** , would you mind letting us know why you consider the complaint to be valid? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/36 "2008-09-06T18:47:17Z")
I confess, I’m kind of curious about the McCain issue, simply from a ‘okay, how does this work’ perspective. Is that an ex post facto law of the legal sort? ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/37 "2008-09-06T18:48:04Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I haven’t seen any evidence that his mother accepted Indonesian citizenship. Did she? I’ve always understood the argument to be that the mere act of marrying an Indonesian citizen and moving to Indonesia caused loss of U.S. citizenship. She “expatriated her citizenship,” whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean. There are people who believe that if an American citizen marries a citizen of another country and then moves to their spouse’s country, s/he loses American citizenship. Hell, there are people who believe that if an American citizen simply moves to another country, s/he loses American citizenship. These people are somewhere between “extremely mistaken” and “complete idiots”. It is, in fact, nearly impossible to _accidentally_ lose US citizenship, and has been for some time. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/38 "2008-09-06T19:43:12Z")
As usual, [the Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/841/how-do-i-go-about-renouncing-my-u-s-citizenship) provides good reading on this type of thing, too. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/39 "2008-09-07T04:53:21Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Seriously, this thing doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Unless Berg can show some kind of evidence that Obama’s mother explicitly renounced her U.S. citizenship. Doesn’t matter what his mom did about her own citizenship; the man was born in Hawaii, a constituent State of the United States of America, and there is no proof that he has renounced his citizenship. Furthermore, the man has zero control over how other nations determine who is or is not a citizen of said nations. I sure hope that floating a case this asinine somehow contravenes the lawyer’s canons and the jerk gets disbarred. ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641/40 "2008-09-07T05:21:04Z")
I speculate that courts will decide that the question of whether or not a particular person meets the constituonal requirements for being president is for Congress to decide when they count the electoral votes come January. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyer-sues-to-block-obama-from-presidency-as-a-non-native-citizen-2/461641.md?page=3)