Lawyers Are Not Engineers!!!!!!!!

Tuckerfan, I think I understand the spirit in which you made this post:

-Because of a fear of litigation in this country, companies make products so safe that they’re nearly unuseable.
-If there weren’t so much litigation, products would be easier to use.

Personally, I’m a big fan of trial lawyers; I think corporations get away with harming people in ways that individuals could never do, and I wish that the laws were STRICTER about what corporations could do. If I pour a vial full of poison into your coffee in the morning, the cops will have me in cuffs by the afternoon. If Monsanto sells a pesticide that gives cancer to 10 people, it’s considered within acceptable safety limits.

However, I think folks are taking your rant too literally. Yeah, it’s not just lawyers whom you’re attacking in your attack on what you see as overlitigation; it’s the entire system of cautious corporations, courts, legislators, lawyers, judges, and juries. Right? As you state, however, you wanted a pithy thread title, and so you were hoping folks would read into what you were saying.

Your mistake was to defend a literal interpretation of your rant when folks started attacking it overliterally. And not to admit mistake re: taking your cues from the bard part.

And Muffin, it’s execrable to attack people for taking money from their parents. How’d you pay for your school? Are you in your parents’ will? Do you have contempt for folks that went to school on daddy’s dime? Mirabile dictu, our society can’t support everyone having high-paying jobs like you have. Some folks gotta scrape to make ends meet; for you to sneer at them for doing honest work for honest pay is totally unclassy, arrogant, and obnoxious. You’re in no position to criticize Tuckerfan’s personal values.

Daniel

On my own dime while supporting my ailing parents.
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Yup. I was in still supporting them when they died. I did get the family cat, though.
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Nope, unless they start whinging about how rough they have it, but I do have contempt for adults who are out of school sponging off of their parents, and I do have contempt for people who lay the blame for their lack of success on their parents for not providing enough cash.
**

Working is good. Helping parents freely not only good. Sponging off of parents is bad. I’ll criticize as I see fit. A sponging adult taking shots at another’s profession? Begs for criticism.

I’d like to know two things:

  1. Is this true?

  2. If and only if so, can the lawyers in this thread defend a lawyer suing Hellman’s Mayonaise in this case?

:confused:

I apologize. I should have said:

  1. If and only if so, can the lawyers in this thread defend a lawyer, an officer of the court, filing a lawsuit against Hellman’s Mayonaise, that is so obviously frivilous, on behalf of a plaintiff in this case?

I would love to see a detailed breakdown of how anyone who was not a raving lunatic could think Hellman’s Mayonaise would be at fault if such a circumstance as described above existed.

ANTH, I’ve never heard of any such case, so I’m not willing to defend or attack it. Lots of facts that may sound ridiculous (McDonald’s coffee, anyone?) turn out to be more complicated than they first appear. If anyone could point me to a case or even an article, I’d take a look at it.

well, I broke my google looking for it, nothing interesting popped up w/ lawsuit mayonnaise. (well, some interesting things, but not what we were looking for).

Wring, the good news is that the power and accuracy of your Ronko Catapult are truly not to be underestimated.

The bad news is that the beer can broke when it landed.

The other news is that my neighbour’s widow wants me to sue her late husband’s ride-on mower manufacturer, on the basis that the mower clearly provided insufficient protection against falling trans-pacific beer cans. Frankly, I think she has a good case, and I’m taking it on.

maybe I shouldn’t have frozen the can first??

:confused:

:smack:

That was why I qualified my question - I cannot find any reference to it either.

And even if it is something that is accurate - it doesn’t mean anything at all about lawyers in general. I’m just wondering if, if this is a true case, if this is an example of an instance where the lawyer should be held legally accountable for filing a frivilous lawsuit on behalf of their client(s).

Personally, the more I look into the issues, the more I feel that IMO there is not much fundamentally wrong with the US legal system that could not be solved by simply minor reform of the civil process. Mainly, something that cracks down hard on frivilous lawsuits, a 50-State one-stop “Federal-level” disbarment process for the true scoundrels, and a law which absolves manufacturers after rigid time lengths from any product liability. I, for example, have no problem with 10 years for most a great many items. But everyone will have a different idea of what is “right”, and there are obviously many items which need longer time periods to hold manufacturers liable for.

Well sure, Anth, a lawyer should always be sanctioned for knowingly filing a frivolous lawsuit. I’ve never heard of this mayonaise thing though, and it would be rather rash to conclude that it’s either real or frivolous without some actual facts.

The Australian/English solution to frivolous lawsuits is the awarding of legal costs against losing parties.

But in fact I really don’t think frivolous lawsuits make much difference. They make the news, they make a good story, but in the end changes to the design of mowers would occur more through cases that have at least some foundation in the eyes of the jury and which therefore win.

The frivolous ones usually make a splash when filed, but then go nowhere, or lose, or lose on appeal.

I actually think there is more wrong with the system than you, Anthracite. I think lawsuits have in fact become a kind of unplanned, inefficient public accident insurance scheme. If you are badly injured, you sue someone on some reasonably tenuous basis, the court feels sorry for you and awards damages against someone who can pay, and that gets built into the cost of products and spread to the community. It’s a very inefficient way of insuring accidents, because you have to go through this charade of finding someone negligent, when at least in my experience everyone really knows that it’s all a game, and that the real underlying social issue is: how is this injured person going to live, pay their hospital bills etc unless we give them some money?

I think that there is a large element of intellectual dishonesty involved. The definitions of negligence as applicable in everyday life, and as applicable in court (in Australia at least) have diverged to what I regard as a ridiculous extent. If I am defending a matter (and I’m basically an insurance defence lawyer), and if I relate the bare facts of the cause of an accident to friends or family, without telling them who was injured, or who might have to pay if someone is found negligent, 9 times out of 10 they will say “just an accident, no one’s fault really”. And yet a court will find my client negligent, because someone was badly hurt, and there is an insurer involved.

It was interesting, earlier in the year a large Australian insurer collapsed, and I had a couple of cases where I was defending, backed by that insurer (at first). In both those cases the grounds of negligence were distinctly tenous but I had no doubt that we would lose because I have been involved in very similar cases before. Then the insurer collapsed. The court knew that. The actual defendants had no money. A judgement against them would have been financially devastating. We won both cases.

Total intellectual dishonesty. The facts hadn’t changed, the negligence (such as it was) hadn’t changed, the lawyers involved hadn’t changed, but suddenly the defendant was no longer negligent, because they had no money. Pardon?

The same forces drive changes in mower design and are what makes the changes made so stupid from an engineering/consumer point of view. They are driven not by what anyone actually needs, not to actually correct real safety problems, but rather as a kneejerk reaction to lawsuits in which manufacturers have been found liable for stupid reasons, so the changes they make to the design of their products are correspondingly stupid.

I don’t know what the answers are. New Zealand reached the same conclusion that I did above. They decided exactly as I say above, namely that the whole tort/personal injury schmozzle was an arbitrary, inefficient public insurance scheme, so they largely outlawed personal injury actions, and replaced them with a national public insurance scheme. Problem is, last I heard, that didn’t work too well either, because at least at first what happened was that making claims was too easy and every Kiwi and his sheep made claims and the cost blew out. I’m not sure if the scheme was scrapped or if it was just tightened down till it worked. Any Kiwis listening?

Canada is another country where stupid actions are discouraged by costs. If you lose, you usually pay about half of the other side’s legal bill. If you have a stupid case, or if you go about your case in a stupid way, you may end up paying the other side’s entire legal bill. It makes most people stop and seriously think before they stir up a hornets’ nest for no good reason. It does not stop all the silly cases (some people have more money than brains), but it helps.

As far as slipping on mayo goes, people should wear personal air bags. (No, I’m not serious.)

I’d be interested in seeing comparisons of the per capita rates for personal injury actions, and the damages awards amounts, between first world nations with differing social nets. Is there a tendancy for courts to pick up the slack in nations with poor social nets?

I don’t have a rigorous answer but my take is:

US: highly privatised health system, not much of a safety net - high litigation
UK: effective though creaking national health system, pretty good disability pension system - low litigation
Australia: public health care and disability pension systems being dismantled and downgraded rapidly - increasing litigation

But I’d hardly like to call my perception definitive.

Similarly, is there a correlation between loosely regulated industry and commerce, and wide open civil litigation including personal injury? Do the courts through monetary decisions play a role in regulating the behavior of businesses when the government is unwilling to do so? If this is correct, then wuold the courts be balancing the disproportionate influence which business often has over politicians?

Princhester, I have the same impression, though no data to back it up.

For what it’s worth, in many (most?) American jurisdictions, the insurer is entitled to a jury trial and is entitled to have a jury that’s not told that there’s an insurance company involved. I remember seeing a trial in the summer of 1995 where one of the attorneys, in his opening statement, slipped and made a reference to the fact that an insurer was involved - the judge immediately declared a mistrial.

Except that’s not what you called him on the carpet for.

You called him on the carpet for accepting a lawnmowing job from his dad. His dad was not paying him the market rate for doing the work, but he accepted the job because he needed the money.

Once you’d done that (which is Not Okay), he unnecessarily defended himself by showing that his dad wasn’t much of a father figure. Way I read it was that he didn’t really owe his dad any favors. He still did his dad a favor by doing the work for below-market value.

This is not sponging off his parents. If he’d accepted the job from a stranger, it wouldn’t have been sponging off a stranger.

This IS an ad hominem attack, and speaks more about you than about him.

Daniel

Correction: he says he would’ve accepted the job for free, but his dad was offering money, so he wasn’t gonna turn it down.

His dad (the one who emptied his family’s bank account when TF was a kid) may have been sponging off of his son, offering him below-market rates to do yardwork. No way was the son sponging off the dad.

Daniel

Daniel, you’re exactly right about the spirit in which I intended the OP, and I should have also hit the engineer resposible for that demon machine harder. Its obvious whoever designed that thing, never drove it (or any other lawnmower, quite possibly) for any length of time, otherwise, he/she would have known that there were problems inherent in the design. Simply relocating the throttle handle so it was in front of the driver (where our hands and eyes normally are), would have been a vast improvement! Ah well, I’ve got a rant about my employer to write. No hard feelings folks?